HQ and LotR

[simon_hibbs]

I'd like to address this subject more directly, and in a way that isn't just concerned with assignign ratings and heroic scales to characters, but addresses the whole issue of how the HQ toolbox could be adapted to LotR gaming. At some stage in my like I think it's inevitable that I'll want to run a game set in Middle Earth, I don't think I could consider my gaming 'career' complete without doing so, even though it may be many years hence.

It sems to me that while many of the core game mechanics from HQ would work very well in a LotR game, much of the glorantha specific infrastructure wouldn't. I'd like to make a clear distinction between what i consider core game rules and Gloranthan rules infrastructure.

The ability ratings system, augment mechanic, simple and extended contests, Hero Points and the keyword system but not the actual keywords themselves are core game mechanics. These are highly portable to other settings and genres, and while their application my vary in some nuanced ways, the rules stand.

Much of the game rules of HQ are glorantha specific, and while they may be portable to similar game worlds they won't be very applicable to many others. The magic systems are prominent examples of this.

I'd say that the notion of magical abilities in HQ, as distinct from mundane abilities, simply doesn't apply in Middle Earth. There is a form of otherworld in Middle Earth (the Wraith World), but it's totaly different from the concept of an otherworld in HeroQuest. Therefore the game mechanical distinction between mundane abilities that match against mundane difficulty ratings, and magical abilities that match against a dfeault resistance of 14 (plus modifiers for 'difficult magic') doesn't apply. All abilities in LotR work the same way as mundane abilities in HQ, and apparently magical abilities are merely the result of very high ability ratings. I sem to remember quotes from JRRT that support such a view, but I don't have references.

The next thing to say is that human magicians in ME simply don't exist. Forget it, in any game I would ever run it just isn't going to happen, and if magic just means a high rating then this is just a side effect of that. The only way you could get close is by playing a human characters with magic items such as palantiri, rings of power, and whatever other similar items you choose to include in your games. Now here I'd allow a considerable amount of leeway, even in character generation. Tolkien introduces ancient artifacts such as magical maps, rings of power, palantri and such whenever the whim strikes him. Why not do the same in your own games, and why not let your players start the game with odd bits and bobs that may turn out to be much more significant thatn they at first seem?

An important concept in HQ is relevent here. A character's rating in using an item doesn't necesserily tell you how powerful the item is, it just tells you how adept the character is at using it. For example, Frodo has some kind of an Invisibility Ring rating, but it's obviously not very high. The One Ring of Power may have huge power, but several times Frodo either cocks up using it or comes very close to doing so.

Perhaps the user only gets direct access to the item's full rating if they can overcome the item's true rating with their ability at using it (plus augments), thus mastering the item. Thus Galdriel might actualy be capable of mastering the One Ring and usurping Sauron's power. Frodo only has Use Ring of Power at 17 (maybe 5w later in the story) so he'll never truly controll it, but the ring augments that rating from it's power rating (say 10W6 for a +14 augment) to give him a usefuly high invisibility power. That might work.

So a magic system for LotR, for most purposes, would be more like an extended system for using artifacts, or for them using you! Artifacts would be handled in a similar (but diffferent) way to Followers or Allies in this regard. To make a complete system, you'd also need rules for creating such artifacts and investing power in them, though it would porbably be hardly used in the game unless you were playing in Beleriand perhaps.

Run out of time today, I'm afraid. This is a difficult subject, but an interestign one and if it can be made to work well would be an good stress test of the HeroQuest system.


Simon Hibbs

[soru]

Some differences from glorantha:

limits to power advancement. In hero wars era glorantha, it's perfectly possible for a character to go from a nobody to being a literal god over the course of 10 years or so, and thats what the character advancement rules are scaled to. I don't think that is 'in genre' for middle earth at all, except perhaps for proteges of sauron.

character races. Elves are simply better than humans, in nearly every way. If you accept the argument that Legolas was a reasonably average wood elf, whereas Aragorn was the bestest human for 500 years, and Legolas would still win in a fight, then I'm not sure it is possible to create a plausible elf character at the default starting power level, unless you want to settle for a crippled outcast or something.

Tone. Theres certainly something different about the 'tone' of stories set in middle earth compared to Glorantha. Not sure how, and if, that needs relecting in a rules change. Maybe a change to the extended conflict resolution tables, to make them less random (e.g. remove the 'transfer' row, add in a 'both sides lose AP' row).

soru

[HMT]

I am respoding to the following quote:

... character races. Elves are simply better than humans, in nearly every way. If you accept the argument that Legolas was a reasonably average wood elf, whereas Aragorn was the bestest human for 500 years, and Legolas would still win in a fight, then I'm not sure it is possible to create a plausible elf character at the default starting power level, unless you want to settle for a crippled outcast or something ...

soru

It is not at all clear to me that Legolas would win such a fight. Here is a paragraph from the description of the journey from the Paths of the Dead to Minas Tirith:

'Strange indeed,' said Legolas. 'In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him. But nobler is his spiritbthan the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Luthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.'" This does not strike me as the kind of thing someone who could easily defeat Aragorn in combat would say.

I am not saying that Aragorn would defeat Legolas in single combat. I just don't see why Legolas would win.

[simon_hibbs]

I agree that the advancement rate for a LotR game probably needs scaling back, but perhaps characetrs should start out more advanced than in HQ as well? Middle Earth just isn't a world full of adventuring parties of starting characters, and that's not the kind of game I'd want to run there.

On the Aragorn Vs Legolas front, the answer is in the quote: "for is he not of the children of Luthien?".

Aragorn is not your average human, he's descended from Luthien Tinuviel, 'the most beautiful of all the children of Illuvatar' and herself half elven and half Maia. In some ways his heritage is even more exalted than that of any pure blood elf.


Simon Hibbs

[Mac Logo]

*Puts on Tolkien nerd hat*
Actually, I don't agree that Legolas was a "reasonably average wood elf".
Legolas was the son of Thranduil, The Elvenking of Mirkwood. Thranduil was a Sindar from Doriath, not a Silvan Elf.

Then there is the age of Legolas, which that is anyone's guess. There was a Legolas Greenleaf mentioned in the incomplete tale of the Fall of Gondolin. It is very unclear if it is the same Legolas. If it is, then Legolas is very old at the time of LotR. 6000+ years old.

Statting out Legolas becomes a stress test for any system. Keeping his skills within the realms of a system designed for mortals to become gods is problematic. If you don't think Legolas is that old, so you don't have to deal with it... Galadriel and Celeborn are around 9000 years old, Elrond is about 6000, even Arwen is nearly 3000.

Elves are a problem for any ME game. Most gloss over the facts by insisting on young elves as heroes and not considering the ramifications of elven realms being run by people with millenial experience at that job, who will not die or weaken, except to want to "Go West".

I do agree with Simon's point about magic. Very much so. I see no human spellcasters. I don't actually see any spellcasters as such. Just the day-to-day skills of beings that have lived longer than most of our human history and the items they've made to aid them in their lives.

Cheers

Graeme

[newsalor]

I think that human spellcasters could be appropriate, but those would be dabbling in black arts. I would keep sorcery toned down, though. Most sorcerers would know small tricks. No fireballs! It is enstablished in the books that dominating others "magically" is possible. Grima does have some charms, does he not? Mostly I'd just go for smoke and mirrors though. The Finnish roleplaying game Praedor gave a good view on alchemists, who are humanitys only access to the mystical. (The sorcerers are not so human anymore. )

I have a character in one ME campaign that is considered to be a sorcerer by few of the other characters in the group. He seems to know things unknowable, his sight reaches far and he has access to all sorts of alchemical knowledge. Now, the far-seeing part may come partially from the hidden telescope, but the character does know very much about herbs and alchemy. Now, I think that if that character would ally with the enemy, he could cross the border of being a mundane wise man into a real sorcerer.

[HMT]

I invite you to look at the Middle Earth rules written for the Amber DRPG found here to help stimulate your thoughts.

[simon_hibbs]

*Puts on Tolkien nerd hat*
Actually, I don't agree that Legolas was a "reasonably average wood elf".

I don't think games set in ME (or anywhere for that matter) need to restrict themselves to average anything. As has been said the advancement rate in HQ isn't realy appropriate to Middle Earth, where an escalating scale of advancement costs might be apropriate. Perhaps a cost of (1HP + Number of Masteries) per advancement would make sense?

I've a rough plan for an alternate history game, which would throw the characters right into the centre of ME politics. The characetrs are travelling up the Anduin when they see a group of riders being ambushed by orcs on the other bank. One of the riders makes a dash for th river, and the characters much try and save him from dorwning, or the Orc arrows. Of course it turns out the chapo they saved is Isildur, who gives them high honours and titles in Gondor, and enmeshing them in intrigue and politics as the ring bends Isildur's mind to greater and greater madness. What will they do to prevent Middle Earth plunging into chaos and war?


Simon Hibbs

[Mike Holmes]

- Edited to note the cross post. The above answers some of the questions I'd have.  -

Lots of good stuff.  That Amber site is excellent for the quotes. From there, I think we can see that magic is more common than Simon gives credit for. It's not spectacular, to be sure, but it exists here and there. The problem is that we're never made aware the nature of such things in ME. But in addition to Grima, there's the Tongue of Sauron, for instance. Again, these people might just be siphoning off power from those who really wield magic (Maiar), but it's hard to say, really.

In general terms, the problem is that there's really only one culture being explored. That is, you have the "religion" of the elves and men, which is the pantheon of which the Maiar are part. And then you have worshippers of one of the Maiar come to dominate Middle Earth. Basically, think of all of Middle Earth as if it was Heortland with just Heortling myths. And, further, like Conan's Crom, the culture doesn't actually get any aid from it's gods. So you have nothing to base the whole HQ Gloranthan magic system upon.

The genius of Glorantha is that it has a rationale for how multiple pantheons can be thought to exist side-by-side in terms of making a system that describes the power of the gods as real. Interesingly, gaming has always had this since D&D, but only Glorantha with HQ makes it all make sense. Here, however, we've got a world that was designed, essentially, to be the myth of England. As such, it's two steps removed from HQ play. One step being that it's the myth, not the existance of the culture that belives in the myth, and it's only one myth as opposed to many existing together. So, yes, you have to throw out the whole Gloranthan end. But that doesn't mean you can't put in a new model to match Middle Earth.

Yes, I agree that you don't want people making D&D wizards from humans. But I think there's room for a form of Magic that's very Middle Earth in nature. Not too different from what's been suggested, I'd say that there's something like Common Magic, that takes the descriptions of skills. The effects of Magic would be in effect, however, for those concentrated in it. Most importantly the special resistance rule for Magic.

The one thing I totally agree with in terms of what the Amber site points out is that Magic is fleeting if it's not from an item. Only items have long term effects. This is an important theme in Middle Earth. Magic gets invested in things, and the being doing so loses some of their own power. All of it in Sauron's case (hence his destruction with the ring's).


As far as the whole Legolas Vs. Aragorn debate, I'd say that they each have their strengths. Legolas's stemming from his elven nature, and Aragorn from his heritage, which includes not only his blood line (which has been a tad diluted over 50 or so generations), but his destiny to be the king again. Lots of Leadership ability, etc.

Yes, Elves are generally better than humans. But I wouldn't say that they're all superhuman in every way. The thing you have to look at with an elf is how far back he goes. Most importantly, has he seen the light of the west. The reason that Glorfindel dwarfs even Elrond's potence is because he's from the First Age, and has seen the West. Most surviving elves haven't. The common elves of Mirkwood are probably not all that superior than humans, except for the whole immortality thing.

The problem with rating Middle Earth is that, outside of the Shire and Bree, the only folks that are encountered are the most important people in the world. Even in the very mortal realms of Rohan and Gondor, they only talk about the rulers and their progeny. Boromir is the most kickass Gondorian. Eomer is the most kickass Rider of Rohan. The only Dunedain we are introduced to is the king. They fight the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, left overs from previous ages like Shelob, the Balrog, etc.

So, the question with Middle Earth is the same as it always is. When do you play, and who do you play? This is the standard "known setting" problem. I encountered it when playing MERP. I think, in general, that people want to play in the Third Age (though if somebody wants to try the first or second age, that would be a different project). Assuing that this is the case, you have, essentially four options as I see them. You can play well before the war of the rings. This is the MERP 1600s option (there are 3000+ years in the third age). It doesn't really matter precisesly when you play too much. The second option is to play just before the war - call it The Hobbit option. The third option is to play during the events of the war. The last option is to play after the war at the beginning of the Fourth Age, essentially. They used to run an event at Cons called Ellessar's spring cleaning party in which you roamed aroung finding all the remaining monsters in Middle Earth and put them to death.  

Do I have to relate the problems with each option, or are people fairly well versed in them? They mostly relate to the second question, which is who do you play. That is, if you choose, say, to play during the war, do you play the fellowship, or do you play somebody else? If somebody else, who can you choose to play that will still be dramatic knowing the world shaking events that are transpiring? Ron refers to this as playing in the Underbelly, and there was some substantial debate about it.

In general, if you play anyone before the events of the war, there's this sense that you can't disturb things. For example, if you're playing the 1600's game, and you hear about this guy called the Necromancer in southern Mirkwood (Dol Goldur), are you going to try and off him? What if you do? The fourth age comes early? If you can't deal with Sauron, then what is the GM going to put in front of you. Same question no matter who you play after the war.

The point is that most of Middle Earth is wrapped up in Sauron's influence. If you play outside of that, then what's the point? Why play in Middle Earth at all? If you do play in relation to Sauron, then can you alter history? How? Do we go looking for poor Smeagol? In any case, we know how that story ends.

I'm not saying that it can't be done. But you do have to make some definite choices about what the game is going to be about in relation to the already told story.

Mike

[simon_hibbs]

I'd like to get away from ratings and look at rules, which is realy what this thread is about. It's a tough subject because I think it requires edefining some key concepts in HeroQuest, but it's imperative to do this for a LotR game based on HQ to get anywhere.

The only characters with bona fide magical powers are very few in number, and most characters will only have access to such powers through artifacts. The way this works needs thrashing out though.

For a start, using magical power of any kind is very noticeable. It creates shock waves in the wraith world that other magicians can sense. How to model this? Well I suppose we could use the idea of a resistance to cross the barrier into the wraith world after all. Any attempt to sense active magic must overcome a resistance. The resistance may be augmented by distance, but the attempt to sense the active magic might actualy be augmented by the ability rating of the active magic being sensed. That way powerful magical effects become fairly easy to sense even over long distances.

Lets say a Palantir gives a Magical Vision 5w2 ability. A user of a Palantir has a 'Arcane Lore' ability. To master the Palantir and use it fully the user must overcome the resistance of the Palantir, if they can't then they only get limited benefits from it.

Merry comes across a Palantir and tries to use it to see where Frodo is. Merry only has Lore of Numenor (I think the Palantir where made there?) at 6, so he has no chance of overcoming the Palantir's ability of 5w2. As a result, he only gets and augment of +5 from the palantir to his Lore of Numenor, giving him a magical sense ability of 11. The Wraith World resistance is 14 (say) and Frodo is far away for a difficulty bonus of +10 so Merry must roll 11 against a resistance of 4W.

If Merry were trying to see what pippin was doing in the next room, that's much easier : 11 versus a resistance of 14. If Frodo were using the ring at just that time, then Frodo's ability with the ring would augment Merry's attempt to view him using the Palantir.

Gandalf tells Merry not to meddle in things beyond his ken and approaches the Palantir. He uses his Lore of Numenor of 15W, plus some augments or a HP and overcomes the Palantir's resistance. He can now use the artifact fully. That means using it's ability directly at 5W2, which he can augment using his own abilities, or vice versa.

I'm not sure this works very well. I think I'm going in the right direction, but I'm not quite there yet. For example, if Gandalf is good enough to overcome the Palantir's ability, then he's in the same ballpark in terms of ability rating. Therefore getting direct access to the artifact's ability rating isn't all that useful.

Any ideas?


Simon Hibbs

[Mac Logo]

BTW a very useful web resource for any ME Narrator is The Encyclopaedia of Arda.
It contains a massive amount of cross-referenced info on every age of Middle Earth - it's a heck of a lot easier than trawling through the books for that one little piece of information. Especially if it's in the HOME books.

Graeme

[Donald]

I'm not sure this works very well. I think I'm going in the right direction, but I'm not quite there yet.
Any ideas?

Why not go the whole hog and make all magic a matter of artifacts?

Magic users then have two important abilities - Arcane Lore and Will. The former allows them to understand an artifact - how to use it, limitations, dangers, etc. While the latter is basically used for conflicts with artifacts and other magic users.

So for the example of the Palantir, Merry has a base ability of 6 to use it against a default resistence of 14. If he succeeds he can use the Palantir's 5w2 ability against the resistence of 14 and difficulty bonus of 10. However unless he gets a complete success he attacts the attention of Sauron and then faces a contest of his Will (say 5w) against Sauron's (10w3 or whatever). Gandalf not only has Lore 15w so will almost certainly succeed but Will of 3w3 so stands a reasonable chance of deflecting Sauron's attempt to hijack the Palantir.

In the same way with Frodo has a high Will which he uses to fight off the power of the Ring which is basically a store of Sauron's Will. If he gets it back it boosts his will to god like levels but when it's destroyed he is left with none.

[simon_hibbs]

Donald,

A long while back I was thinking of using Amber as a basis for a LotR game, which has similarities to this.

Many RPGs differentiate between skill/finesse and power. In combat systems these are combat skill and your damage roll. In RQ magic they were the spells you knew and your POW. HeroQuest tries to get away from that so while a seperation of this kind may well make things easier I am trying to find an approach that keeps as close to the HQ way of doing things as possible, which may be doomed to fail of course.


Simon Hibbs

[soru]

Here's how I would handle the one ring:

The struggle not to be dominated by the One Ring is obviously an extended contest, as it's the heart of the story. That doesn't preclude other extended contests going on at the same time, as long as they don't directly overlap too much. This contest doesn't use a strict you go/it goes sequence, it just pops up whenever appropriate, sometimes laying dormant for years at a time, sometimes requiring continual back to back rolls.

For most mortals, it should generally be a hopeless struggle, the only form of victory is to delay the inevitable end by long enough for providence to intervene. For the wise, it is more of a temptation than a threat.

It attacks with a rating of about w4 (adjust all ratings in this according to taste). It can only make make small AP bids while kept away from the skin, but can make gradually larger ones the longer it is worn and the more its powers are used.

It can be resisted with just about any magical ability, personality trait or relationship, from magecraft to loyalty, strong will, proud or love of home comforts.

If the ring wins, the ringbearer gets 'Minion of Sauron 10w3' as an ability, which they must roll against whenever they try to do anything against sauron's will.

If the ringbearer wins, the ring acts as a major augment (1/4 of its rating) to most abilities of the bearer. The downside is it also adds 1/2 of its rating to the ability used to overcome it, and twists that ability into something appropriately darker.

So Smeagol wins and his 'love of home 10W' ability becomes 'hermit 10W3', Gandalfs 'White Magic W4' becomes 'dark magic W6', Boromirs 'heir to stewards of Gondor w2' becomes 'hate enemies of stewards of Gondor (including any upstart pretenders) w4', and so on.

Other rings of power work similarly, except that they have lower ratings, only add 1/4 to one ability and 1/10 to others, and don't twist the nature of those who control them.

At least until sauron gets hold of the one Ring.

soru

[simon_hibbs]

Soru,

Ok, that's a fair framework to build on. I don't think losing the contest makes you a servant of Sauron - Golum has obviously lost but he's not friend of the Lidless Eye. He serves The Precious, not Sauron.

Running an ongoing extended contest is nice though. I suppose you could roll an exchange every time the bearer either uses the ring, or attempts to give it up. These are the crisis moments when the hold of the ring over it's bearer is tested.


Simon Hibbs