Rewarding Players

[Bankuei]

>>Yep, the HK action flick training method is a fun one. Like in Feng Shui where to gain an ability you have to describe a training montage of this sort to explain exactly how the character improves. This, of course, is more Gamist than Sim as it simply allows points to be spent on anything and then uses the retroactive method to explain the expenditures.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of related improvement as opposed to a free for all.  Improvement in certain skills  naturally leads to improvement in others, or attributes.  Ballet, ice skating, and gymnastics all develop similar levels of balance and muscles, while dancing, martial arts, and wrestling develop body familiarity, timing and distancing.  Naturally not all of the skills carryover into the others completely, but there can be a gestalt effect.  

Likewise, there's not too many surgeons with shaky hands.  The development of a skill also develops an attribute.  Perhaps attributes are the "gestalt" effect in most games, since if those are raised, all related skills also improve.

Of course, this depends on how you're approaching the improvement process.  From a Gamist view, it only matters that points/experience= better abilities.  From the Simulationist view, the above ideas make sense, and also allow more freedom than simply practicing that skill alone for improvement.  The Narrativist view would be that a change in character concept, or dramatic breakthrough("Now I understand the hidden meaning of rising dragon fist technique!").

Since the character improvement is the way 99% of the games handle characters changing, or growing, and that reward system encourages certain actions, what do we think is an important basis for reward?  I do notice that most games give a learning curve of increasing difficulty the higher up you go, which may be true of real life, but is it necessary for less realistic games?  

Bankuei

[Bankuei]

>>Yep, the HK action flick training method is a fun one. Like in Feng Shui where to gain an ability you have to describe a training montage of this sort to explain exactly how the character improves. This, of course, is more Gamist than Sim as it simply allows points to be spent on anything and then uses the retroactive method to explain the expenditures.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of related improvement as opposed to a free for all.  Improvement in certain skills  naturally leads to improvement in others, or attributes.  Ballet, ice skating, and gymnastics all develop similar levels of balance and muscles, while dancing, martial arts, and wrestling develop body familiarity, timing and distancing.  Naturally not all of the skills carryover into the others completely, but there can be a gestalt effect.  

Likewise, there's not too many surgeons with shaky hands.  The development of a skill also develops an attribute.  Perhaps attributes are the "gestalt" effect in most games, since if those are raised, all related skills also improve.

Of course, this depends on how you're approaching the improvement process.  From a Gamist view, it only matters that points/experience= better abilities.  From the Simulationist view, the above ideas make sense, and also allow more freedom than simply practicing that skill alone for improvement.  The Narrativist view would be that a change in character concept, or dramatic breakthrough("Now I understand the hidden meaning of rising dragon fist technique!").

Since the character improvement is the way 99% of the games handle characters changing, or growing, and that reward system encourages certain actions, what do we think is an important basis for reward?  I do notice that most games give a learning curve of increasing difficulty the higher up you go, which may be true of real life, but is it necessary for less realistic games?  

Bankuei

[erithromycin]

First of all, is there something wiggy with this forum? I've seen a few double postings [this is going to be one too, I just know it].

Secondly, I'm beginning to think that Ron's psychic.

Thirdly, I'll apologise for where these posts have been lacking in clarity and structure. I tend to write these as I think them, and I tend not to think in straight lines.

Right, onto the responses:

Sorry Mike, I may have occluded the issue. Not all games have experience mechanics, but all games, if they are in any way shape or form deserving of that appelation, produce experiences. The 'mechanic', as't'were, may be no more than a memory, so yes, you are missing my point, but it wasn't a clear one.

To answer your questions:

What are experience points - what thing, in nature, or physics, or metaphysics, do they represent? Once you have an answer, stick to it. IME, no games have an answer, or stick to it consistently.

Changing the name of a thing does not change a thing.

Roleplaying rewards in metagame, and character rewards in improvement.

This, it think, is what I'm after, but with an addition.

What is the interface between player and character?
[apart from a whole 'nother kettle of fish]

Is there a way to reward that too? Or improve it?

The mechanics in RuneQuest and Cyberpunk work, to an extent, but as you pointed out leave gaps that affect the way in which they are used.

Character development is experience/reward system.

One is the change of a character over time, the other is the mechanism by which it takes place. Goals for character development MUST be reflected in e/r systems.

It's not, I suppose, that e/r systems tend to be wrong, or that they are not 'realistic', but as such integral parts of a game that they often fail to reflect the ethos and intent of the system of which they are a part.

Having just reread it - Good roleplaying rewards are inherently narrativist? Doesn't that defeat the whole thing?

Ron's suggestion goes someway there, but I think I was looking for a more concrete system, so I'm going to go off and work on something before throwing it into game design to see what chews on it.

In response to everything else -

Yes, I think there should be some way of reflecting the rope/candle/mouthwash - better headwaiter angle of it all, but I'm not sure what.

No, I'm not sure that there's a need for exponential curves, except as a game balance issue.

And to cause more trouble -

What falls into the scope of 'in-game rewards' and what are the potentials for 'metagame' rewards.

drew