Fungeon - GMless Dungeon Crawling (Preliminary Design)

[Mike Holmes]

Why can't you play solo? Sure you'll always know what you're up against, but so what? If you work out the rules so that it is collaboratively competitive (the players work together against the Fungeon to score treasure or exp), then single-player play is easy. As it stands the best strategy is pretty easy to figure out. I have run through a couple of Fungeons already with my Ratcatcher (using a spreadsheet for dice), and I can see it working fine.

One thing. Healing is too easy to obtain. You shouldn't be able to designeat the nature of treasure so easily. It means that you're always finding healing just in the nick of time. Hmmm... perhaps make it a gamble. For each healing roll a die and on an even result get a hit. Hmmm..

Back to the Fungeon!

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

What happens on a tie of the high die in an annoying conflict? My Ratcatcher's fate is hanging in the balance as he tries to open a chest with a measley 2nd lvl poisoned lock.

BTW, I'm doing poison as a roll of Painful level vs. Character level every room you enter until I find a Cure poison potion (2 treasure points; cheap to stop, but potentially dangerous).

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

Why can't you play solo?

Wow!  You've been playing solo?  Looks like Fungeon works better than I thought ... hooray for simplicity!

One thing. Healing is too easy to obtain. You shouldn't be able to designeat the nature of treasure so easily. It means that you're always finding healing just in the nick of time.

Hrmm ... say you are a Level 3 PC.  You have 15 Hits.  You get to place a Level 3 Monster, a Level 3 Trap and a Level 3 Treasure (playing solo).  So does a Level 3 Monster not hurt you enough?  Hmm ... I wonder if you should get points = (Your Level * 2)?  Two Level 3 Monsters should be a little tougher.  Or one Level 6 ...

What happens on a tie of the high die in an annoying conflict?

You compare the next highest dice.  And on down.  Tie means neither party succeeds, so the Trap wasn't sprung, and you didn't get hurt.

BTW, I'm doing poison as a roll of Painful level vs. Character level every room you enter until I find a Cure poison potion (2 treasure points; cheap to stop, but potentially dangerous).

Hmm .. That sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to think about how to balance out the cost of poisoning somebody ... How did you spend your points for a Poison Trap?

Thanks for playtesting this thing!!

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-11-14 15:14, Zak Arntson wrote:
Wow!  You've been playing solo?  Looks like Fungeon works better than I thought ... hooray for simplicity!

Well, don't get too excited. I said it can be done. It's turning out to be pretty easy to defeat. Might need a little more spice. I keep making up house rules.

Hrmm ... say you are a Level 3 PC.  You have 15 Hits.  You get to place a Level 3 Monster, a Level 3 Trap and a Level 3 Treasure (playing solo).  So does a Level 3 Monster not hurt you enough?  Hmm ... I wonder if you should get points = (Your Level * 2)?  Two Level 3 Monsters should be a little tougher.  Or one Level 6 ...

Rolling exactally three against three IS harsh on the player, resulting in 9 points of damage on the average (the player and monster do the same amounts). But, given the lack of hits for the monsters, and that you probably get to use your bonus dice (fighter), It's unlikely that a monster will get to do no more than a few points of damage. The problem becomes instantly much worse when the character gets to fourth level and is probably wielding six dice agains four opponent dice.

Even worse, if I take several small monsters, they stand even less of a chance as I can eliminate some opposing dice each round. And three level one creatures can only do one point of damage no matter what in a round and take two points (or more) automatically. As opposed to the level three creature that may do three dice and will have less auto hita against it. And this is worth more EXP as well. That has to change. A simple balance is to say that each creature has 3 + (3 times level) in Hits. This gives a disincentive to making lots of monsters, and Would come closer to balancing.

You compare the next highest dice.  And on down.  Tie means neither party succeeds, so the Trap wasn't sprung, and you didn't get hurt.

That's what I thought. Thorbad lives!

Hmm .. That sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to think about how to balance out the cost of poisoning somebody ... How did you spend your points for a Poison Trap?

Same as anything. It's bought as a trap. So I bought the chest as a lvl 2 Annoying to avoid being poisoned, and a lvl 2 (remember I'm level 4 now) damage level for the poison. So, each room I enter I roll against the damage rating (six dice for Thorbad, ratcatchers are resistant to poison) until he finds a neutralize poison potion.

Thanks for playtesting this thing!!

Hey, it's been a riot.

Next room I'm taking on a lvl 4 bear. I'm ruling that it's hug is an annoying roll to avoid and if I fail I can do no damage to the bear until I do make the roll at the beginning of the round. Rolls that I have for combat that are higher are treated instead as ties. Paralyzation would work the same.

What do you say, do ratcatchers get their bonus dice against bear hugs?

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

Quick stat analysis. Taking a break after attaining level five.

Level 4 farmer wielding four dice against one level 4 monstie. Expected damage 12, or he gets as good as he gives. The only reason he wins is that he has more hits than the monstie. EXP 13

Level 4 farmer wielding four dice against four level 1 monsties. Expected damage 3 (four is second most likely), or each monster is good for about one. EXP 16

Level 4 fighter wielding six dice against one level 4 monstie. Expected damage in the encounter 4 points (five is second most likely). The character can theoretically die. EXP 13

Level 4 fighter weilding six dice against four one level monsties. Expected damage 2 points (impossible to take more than that). EXP 16

See the problem?

Hey, how about Running = Annoying roll to disengage and go back to the last room (where unused healing may be applied). Failure would mean the same as Paralysis or Hug above, the Painful roll for that round is made but player successes are all cancelled.

I've noted that all combat rounds have two phases. The roll annoying stuff phase, and the attack phase. Or am I doing something wrong?

If a monstie has a special attack and he fails,then I'm assuming that he is "paralyzed" for the round? Otherwise why wouldn't all creatures have such abilities and use them? Essentially ones with them would be more powerful than those without.

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

What do you say, do ratcatchers get their bonus dice against bear hugs?

Um, no.  But I love that you keep coming up with different special things.  Continuous poison, bear hugs, and so on.

I've noted that all combat rounds have two phases. The roll annoying stuff phase, and the attack phase. Or am I doing something wrong?

If a monstie has a special attack and he fails,then I'm assuming that he is "paralyzed" for the round? Otherwise why wouldn't all creatures have such abilities and use them? Essentially ones with them would be more powerful than those without.

The only time a combat round has an Annoying Conflict is if the Monster has a special ability.  If the monster is straight up attacking, it's the Painful Conflict only.

I didn't think out the Special Ability part very well ... hrmm ... I would say that Special Abilities go first (before each combat roll), and if it fails, that Monster is "paralyzed" (unable to attack) for that combat roll.



Okay, here's some rules addendum to hopefully make things more challenging:

The Dungeon Floor is how many floors removed from the entrance of the Dungeon.  To be easy, start with Dungeon Floor 1 and count upwards.  In a tower, it's how many floors above the entrance.  In a forest, it's how deep you are into the woods.

Experienced Players may want their starting Dungeon Floor to be equal to their Party Min or even Party Max.

Before you enter a Room, check to see if anyone has gone up a Level.  If so, you may want to recalculate the following items:

Party Total (sum all levels in the party)
Party Max (highest level in the party)
Party Min (lowest level in the party)

The Player who created the category in the Room (Monster or Trap) is the one who controls and rolls for them.

Stairs automatically appear in the next room whenever the Party Min increases.  These stairs lead to the next Dungeon Floor (i.e., increment Dungeon Floor by one).  "stairs" refer to any location that shifts the Dungeon Floor (iron gates, actual stairs, areas of a forest, etc.)

Spending Points on a Room:

Traps
Points: Party Max + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
* 1 point = 1 Level of Annoying Conflict
* 1 point = 1 Level of Painful Conflict
* Double the cost if the Painful Conflict is continuous.

Continuous damage can only be prevented by a Treasure designed to prevent it.  These Treasures cost 1 point per Level of Painful Conflict.

Monsters
Points: Party Total + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
* 1 point = 1 Level
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus vs. Type of Attack (melee, steel, wood, fist, etc.)
* 1 point = increase Special Ability Annoying Conflict by 1 Level
* 1 point = increase Special Ability Painful Conflict by 1 Level
* Double cost of Special Ability if the Painful Conflict is continuous (see Traps)
* Monster Hits = Monster Level * 3

Special Abilities: A Monster can have any number of Special Abilities.  A Special Ability is free, and you get the Monster's Level to divide between the Annoying and Painful Conflicts.  To increase the power of Special Abilities, refer to the costs above.

Before the combat roll, the Monster can use its Special Ability. If it fails, that Monster's combat roll is defensive only (i.e., if it has the highest die, nothing happens).

Treasure
Points: Party Min + Dungeon Floor
* 1 point = 1 point of Treasure (gold, statuettes, etc)
* 1 point = 1 mundane item (wooden club, metal sword, etc)
* 2 points = 1 fancy item (mithril armor, silver dagger, etc)
* 1 point = Heal 1 Hit (one-use)
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus (one-use)
* 1 point = Prevent 1 Level of continuous Painful Conflict
* 2 points = Heal 1 Hit (per Room, applied on exit of Room)
* 2 points = 1 Die Bonus (unlimited use, must apply to one situation: combat, fire, poison, etc)

Saving Points
If you do not want to spend all your allotted points for this Room, these points are removed from the next Room's Treasure.  Keep removing points from each Room's Treasure until the saved points are spent.

Retreat
You can automatically retreat, if the party unanimously decides.  Play out one more combat roll, but the PCs are purely defensive: If any Player dice win, no damage is done.

Retracing Steps & Wandering Monsters
When reentering a Room, everyone must roll against a Dungeon Floor Level Annoying Conflict.  Anyone who fails makes a Monster with points = Party Min.

Once Back in Town
* You can heal 1 hit per point of Treasure you have accumulated, by selling (i.e., erasing from your character sheet) it.
* You can sell your Treasure for its original point cost. This can be used to purchase other Treasures in Town.  In Town, however, the price you pay for Treasure is doubled.

_________________
Zak
http://mailto:zak@mimir.net">zak@mimir.net
http://zaknet.tripod.com/hmouse">Harlekin-Maus Games

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-15 15:15 ]

[Mike Holmes]

Nifty. Good stuff.

Uh-oh. Questions.

What effect does the dungeon floor have? I kept expecting to see that it was the number of points that you get to spend on each category in each room. Did I miss it?

What's the importance of the Party Total?

Why are permenant magic items so cheap? I was going to mention this before, but this is the easiest way to get more powerful already. If I kill a lvl 3 monster I get 10 EXP, or one fourth of what I need to get from level three to four. So I need to kill 4 lvl 3 monsters to get another die (and a half). Whereas 4 lvl 3 treasures means 2 dice of permenant power by the old five to one ratio, or six dice by your new ratio. I'm thinking more like ten to one. Twenty to one to get an item that effectively raises your level by one, and thirty to one for one that raises your level and gives class bonus. Or something like that. Makes permenant magic something really hard to save for, and a real triumph when you get it.

These permenant bonus items are really powerful in that you get extra dice for stuff without raising your level. Now, if points for rooms were based on floor, then it wouldn't matter, would it?


One of the fun things in the game is going to be defining things as you play. I was just goofing around with the ratcatcher idea. But thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that he should only get his class bonus against poison and against vermin-like creatures. This makes him different than a fighter. Then it occured to me. Fighters shouldn't get their bonus against vermin. What good is being strong against rats. You need fast. Anyhow, the point is that you can define a monster or trap or whatever by what can affect it and what cannot. So Thorbad is great against rats, centipedes, and spiders, etc. But not so good against trolls. Or at least a monster defining player could decide that Trolls fell outside of a ratcatcher's purview.

So in solo play I'm sending Thorbad to the fifth level of the devil swamp today. Mostly vermin he'll encounter there. :smile:

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

What effect does the dungeon floor have? I kept expecting to see that it was the number of points that you get to spend on each category in each room. Did I miss it?

What's the importance of the Party Total?

See the "points" part of each category.  You get (Party Max + Dungeon Floor) for Traps, (Party Total + Dungeon Floor) for Monsters, and (Party Min + Dungeon Floor) for Treasure.

Why are permenant magic items so cheap?

These permenant bonus items are really powerful in that you get extra dice for stuff without raising your level. Now, if points for rooms were based on floor, then it wouldn't matter, would it?

You've got a good point about the 1 bonus magic item die is MUCH cheaper than going up a level.  With the new point distribution, say you are solo at 4th level, and on the 3rd Dungeon Floor.

You get 7 points for Traps, 7 points for Monsters and 7 points for Treasure.  You don't want to face the Trap, so you squander your 7 points on a trapped chest that your PC will avoid.  You get 7 points for your Monster.  It's a 5th Level Ratigator (5 points) with a terrible Pinning Bite [5 Annoying/7 Painful] (2 points).  You get 7 points for Treasure, so you spend it on a Magic Ring that regenerates 3 Hits per Room (6 points) and pair of Silver Earrings (1 point).

My thoughts on this ... it does look like Treasure is easy to get.  But then, as a 4th Level PC facing a 5th Level Ratigator w/ Special Ability ... you may be in for some hurt.  But there's the fact that with a larger party, say you have 3 PCs, 3rd level, 4th level, 6th level on the 5th Dungeon Floor: You only get 8 points for Treasure, 18 points for Monsters (!!), and 11 points for Traps.

I am concerned about Treasure, though.  How's this:
Treasure
Points: Party Min + Dungeon Floor
You must first decide on what form the Treasure takes:
* 1 point = 1 point of Treasure (gold, statuettes, etc)
* 1 point = 1 mundane item (wooden club, metal sword, etc)
* 2 points = 1 fancy item (mithril armor, silver dagger, etc)
Then you must spend points to make it magical:
* 1 point = Heal 1 Hit (one-use)
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus (one-use)
* 1 point = Prevent 1 Level of continuous Painful Conflict
* 2 points = 1 Die Bonus (unlimited use, must apply to one situation: combat, fire, poison, etc)

There is no such thing as continuous Healing.  So a +3 Sword would be 6 points (mundane item, 3 Die Bonuses).  And the other party members would certainly complain when you spend 6 points for you, leaving 2 points for the rest.

I'm worried that the Special Ability costs are skewed ... they're easier to avoid than a regular attack.  Here's new costs:

Monsters
Points: Party Total + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
* 1 point = 1 Level
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus vs. Type of Attack (melee, steel, wood, fist, etc.)
* 1 point = increase Special Ability Painful Conflict by 2 Levels
* Double cost of Special Ability if the Painful Conflict is continuous (see Traps)
* Monster Hits = Monster Level * 3

Anyhow, the point is that you can define a monster or trap or whatever by what can affect it and what cannot.

That's really cool.  Though I'd give Fighters combat bonuses always, and Ratcatchers bonuses combat against vermin, avoiding posion & disease, and working in confined spaces.

[Mike Holmes]

Here's the legend of Thorbad's trip to Devil Swamp. Tromping into the fifth level swamp Thobad encountered pool after pool (room after room) of giant biting mosquitoes (5 lvl 1 baddies). He took a couple of damage early on, but was able to find healing herbs to make himself well again (avoiding lvl 1 annoying lvl 2 continuous poison slugs that like such herbs). At one point he was poisoned, but soon found a mushroom before the poison could do much damage. Other treasures he found included other herbs that he knew that he could sell back in town.

After six pools he reached a point where the swamp descended into a dark fen (lvl 6). Here he encountered a very hungry and monsterously large frog (lvl 6 with a special attack). Doing battle with the frog, Thorbad had just achieved lvl 6 for nine dice with his class bonus, and with his magic stick of ratsmacking, his gloves of protection, and his boots of negotiating slime, he was a grand total of twelve dice. The first round the frog attacked ferociously doing 5 points while Thorbad dealt 6. The next round the frog used its special tongue-punch attack which worked on Thorbad (must've been surprised). This did a further 7 points to Thorbad whilst the frog only took 4. Thorbad was not about to be done in by a frog, though, and on the next round not only avoided the frog's tongue, but managed to deliver 10 mightly points of damage finishing the frog.

All in all, Thorbad returned to town and spent some treasure to heal leaving him with a total of seven unspent treasure points. He's considering his next move now. Anyone have a Fungeon with lots of vermin that needs clearing?


Anyhow, one idea I had for rooms is penalties. For each point spent the character must roll one die less for certain activities. Like a slimy floor might be a lvl 2 penalty to fighting. A cursed room might be a lvl 2 penalty to spell use, etc. I've also been considering rules for obstacles in rooms, defending, and ranged attacks (free round?). I love the retreat rule.

The two points for healing is much better. I'd also drop the one hit auto healing per room, however.

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

See the "points" part of each category.  You get (Party Max + Dungeon Floor) for Traps, (Party Total + Dungeon Floor) for Monsters, and (Party Min + Dungeon Floor) for Treasure.

OK, I was doing some stuff wrong with Thorbad. Oops. He'll have to brave the Swamp again, I'm afraid.

You've got a good point about the 1 bonus magic item die is MUCH cheaper than going up a level.  

-()-Snip Ratagator example-()-

(ratcatchers definitely get bonuses for ratigators, no?)

I am concerned about Treasure, though.  How's this:
Treasure
Points: Party Min + Dungeon Floor
You must first decide on what form the Treasure takes:
* 1 point = 1 point of Treasure (gold, statuettes, etc)
* 1 point = 1 mundane item (wooden club, metal sword, etc)
* 2 points = 1 fancy item (mithril armor, silver dagger, etc)
Then you must spend points to make it magical:
* 1 point = Heal 1 Hit (one-use)
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus (one-use)
* 1 point = Prevent 1 Level of continuous Painful Conflict
* 2 points = 1 Die Bonus (unlimited use, must apply to one situation: combat, fire, poison, etc)

There is no such thing as continuous Healing.  So a +3 Sword would be 6 points (mundane item, 3 Die Bonuses).  And the other party members would certainly complain when you spend 6 points for you, leaving 2 points for the rest.

Cool, I hadn't thought about the party distribution thing as I've only adventured solo. Still, a +3 sword is priceless. Much easier to stack +1 stuff. Or can you only use one item at a time no matter what.

Perhaps 3 points per perm plus? What is the use of fancy items, BTW? How are they different from 2 lvl 1 treasures. Do they get some bonus? Hmmm. Howabout monster powers to destroy your equipment.

I'm worried that the Special Ability costs are skewed ... they're easier to avoid than a regular attack.  Here's new costs:

Monsters
Points: Party Total + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
* 1 point = 1 Level
* 1 point = 1 Die Bonus vs. Type of Attack (melee, steel, wood, fist, etc.)
* 1 point = increase Special Ability Painful Conflict by 2 Levels
* Double cost of Special Ability if the Painful Conflict is continuous (see Traps)
* Monster Hits = Monster Level * 3

Sounds good, tho I'll have to check it out...

... I'd give Fighters combat bonuses always, and Ratcatchers bonuses combat against vermin, avoiding posion & disease, and working in confined spaces.

Sure, it'll all get defined during play.

With the new rules, that is going to be much more lethal. Have you given any thought to balancing out lots of small creatures vs. single large creatures? One thing would be to make the EXP equal to the creature's level per hit. So 1 lvl 5 creature would be worth 75 potential points. Whereas 5 lvl 1 creatures would be worth 15 only. This matches their ability to hurt you pretty well. Then multiply the current EXP required to go up a level by 5. Or something like that. Maybe do the D&D divide by the ratio of levels?

At twelve dice, Thorbad was fairly immune to level one creatures. The chance of not rolling a ten on twelve dice is only 28%. Any ten he rolls cancels out any chance the lvl 1 creatures have of doing any damage. And there is a chance that they roll even lower, as well. This means that he would take a point of damage every four rounds or so (possibly less), but be killing three or four each round. So even against 12 lvl 1 creatures (Thorbad's lvl6 plus the dungeon lvl6), he'd likely only take a point, maybe 2. I know its cheap to put him up against only lvl 1 creatures, but it's not forbidden, and I'm trying to test the limits of the game.

Going up against a single lvl 12 creature, Thorbad's likely to get killed. It should do 36 damage before succumbing to Thorbad's 12 dice, and he's only got 30. Thorbad better try the second floor Town Sewer, instead if he want's to survive alone against single high-level creatures.

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

More Revisions:
Treasure
Points: Party Min + Dungeon Floor
Costs:
(all as before except)
* Double the cost of the item for each permanent Die Bonus

This means a Sword costs 1 point.  A Flaming Sword costs 2 points (fancy item).  A Flaming Sword +1 costs 4 points.  Flaming Sword +2 costs 8 points.  And so on.

A standard Sword +3 now costs 8 points.  So your 5th Level Ratcatcher needs to be AT LEAST down to Floor 3.

And yes, you can only wield one combat item at a time.  I would say that common sense prevails (two rings, one weapon & shield or one BIG weapon, one armor, one set of earrings, etc) for hoarding items.

I also like your XP suggestion.  Okay, so each time you hit a monster, you get Monster Level XP's.  Anytime you avoid a Trap you get Trap Cost XP's.  No XP's for treasure.  This should be fine.

Let's see ... 12 lvl 1 creatures with this new experience system gives you 3 hits per Monster ... 1 EXP per hit ... ... 12 monsters: 36 EXP.  1 lvl 12 creature gives you 36 hits per monster ... at level 12 ... 1 monster: 432 EXP!  Wow!  I wonder how this will work out?

Thanks again for all your playtesting ...