Chargen and Magic

[xiombarg]

Okay, I finally got around to reading my copy of HeroQuest, and the most confusing thing for me was magic, particularly in chargen.

In particular, I'm talking about list-based chargen.

Let me see if I understand this:

You can either take Common Magic as your magic keyword or a more specialized magic keyword.

If you choose the Common Magic keyword, you get five free "tricks" of Common Magic, used mostly as augments. Regardless, you are still a communal worshipper/spiritist/lay member of your Homeland's religion, depending if your homeland's religion is theist, aniministic, or wizardly, respectively.

If you take a specialized magic keyword that's a "common religion", it's more or less like the above -- you're just wrapping a particular set of beliefs around your Common Magic keyword. (Side question: Would this replace your homeland's Religion keyword, or just add to it?)

If you take a specialized magic keyword instead of Common Magic and it's not a "common religion", this makes you an initiate/practitioner/liturgist (for theist, animistic, and wizardly religions, respectively), giving you certain benefits, as outlined in the individual magic chapters. However, this means that you do NOT get the five "tricks" mentioned above. (Aside: For wizardly magic, specialization could make you an "adept" or an "orderly" instead of a liturgist, depending on what you pick.)

However, the GM can allow you to have both a specialized magic keyword AND the Common Magic keyword, in which case you get the benefits of the specialized magic keyword AND the five "tricks". The example given for list-based chargen works this way.

The GM can also allow you to have a "higher" level of devotion to a specialized magic keyword, such as being a Devotee instead of an Initiate, but that's strictly optional.

Regardless, if you only choose ONE magic keyword, you can Concentrate for free. Concentration is different than specialization -- it just makes it cheaper to buy powers in the area you're Concentrated in (either theist magic, animistic magic, or wizardly magic... or even common magic).

Is the above correct? If not, please cite pages and/or rules to indicate why I'm wrong. This isn't because I won't believe you, but because I'm trying to understand the rules as written, rather than the way individual people do it...

Also, feel free to whack me with a FAQ or a previous thread. My intent here is to learn and understand.

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi,

This is a great post. You may also want to check out the sample heroes at www.glorantha.com/support for comparison.

You can either take Common Magic as your magic keyword or a more specialized magic keyword.
(snip)
However, the GM can allow you to have both a specialized magic keyword AND the Common Magic keyword, in which case you get the benefits of the specialized magic keyword AND the five "tricks". The example given for list-based chargen works this way.

Correct.

If you choose the Common Magic keyword, you get five free "tricks" of Common Magic, used mostly as augments. Regardless, you are still a communal worshipper/spiritist/lay member of your Homeland's religion, depending if your homeland's religion is theist, aniministic, or wizardly, respectively.

Correct.

If you take a specialized magic keyword that's a "common religion", it's more or less like the above -- you're just wrapping a particular set of beliefs around your Common Magic keyword. (Side question: Would this replace your homeland's Religion keyword, or just add to it?)

Correct. It would not replace your homeland's religion keyword (unless for some reason the player wants it to).

If you take a specialized magic keyword instead of Common Magic and it's not a "common religion", this makes you an initiate/practitioner/liturgist (for theist, animistic, and wizardly religions, respectively), giving you certain benefits, as outlined in the individual magic chapters. However, this means that you do NOT get the five "tricks" mentioned above. (Aside: For wizardly magic, specialization could make you an "adept" or an "orderly" instead of a liturgist, depending on what you pick.)

Correct.

The GM can also allow you to have a "higher" level of devotion to a specialized magic keyword, such as being a Devotee instead of an Initiate, but that's strictly optional.

Correct, but note that this has a small price (see "Assigning Ability Ratings", p. 21 for Narrative Method, and p. 24 for List Method, the rules text are essentially the same in both places.)

Regardless, if you only choose ONE magic keyword, you can Concentrate for free. Concentration is different than specialization -- it just makes it cheaper to buy powers in the area you're Concentrated in (either theist magic, animistic magic, or wizardly magic... or even common magic).

Correct.

Cheers,

/Peter Nordstrand

[xiombarg]

Wow, I guess I was less confused that I thought I was. Thank you.

Oh, as a quick aside: http://www.rpgnews.com/heroquest.php

[RaconteurX]

Actually, every hero gets five Common Magic picks unless he or she has concentrated his or her specialized magic. Initiates, practitioners, liturgists and orderlies are not required to concentrate their magic, and therefor may continue to use Common Magic. Refer to the Membership section (p. 106) of the Specialized Religions chapter.

[xiombarg]

Actually, every hero gets five Common Magic picks unless he or she has concentrated his or her specialized magic. Initiates, practitioners, liturgists and orderlies are not required to concentrate their magic, and therefor may continue to use Common Magic. Refer to the Membership section (p. 106) of the Specialized Religions chapter.

Right, but this assumes that the character has taken Common Magic AND Specialized Magic as keywords. My understanding was you don't get Common Magic if your only magic keyword is "Initiate of Phlegm" or whatever.

What makes you think you ALWAYS get your Common Magic, even if you don't take a Common Magic keyword? (Note that I'm at work so I can't look up the page reference... yet.)

[RaconteurX]

What makes you think you ALWAYS get your Common Magic, even if you don't take a Common Magic keyword?

Look at the sample characters, both in the book and on the Issaries website. All those without concentrated magic have both Common Magic and a Specialized Magic keyword, save for Galan the Bison Rider, who has only Common Magic by player choice. In the Keywords section (p. 18) of the Heroes chapter, it states that allowing a hero to have both keywords is up to the narrator. However, in the Magical Abilities section (p. 29) of the Abilities chapter, it states that heroes are exceptional and likely have a great deal of magic. It also states that most people have a Common Magic keyword, which the Common Magic section (p. 104) of the Basic Magic chapter reinforces.

[xiombarg]

Ah. We are in agreement, but think of it differently. I agree that the Narrator is heavily encouraged by the examples and the Magical Abilities section and the to allow PCs to have both Common Magic and a specialized magic keyword, but by the very bit you cite on p. 18, it's obvious the Narrator is not required to do so. This was one of the sources of my confusion, in that the examples seem to engage in a practice not actually required by the rules.

My question was about the absolute minimum required by the rules, not what is heavily encouraged. This is why I asked what is actually in the rules and not what people actually do in practice. Obviously, the rules encourage a more generous practice, but that's not the same thing as requiring it. Notice how all the references you cite say "usually" and "most", not "always". I'm asking about "always".

As far as I can tell, the rules, as written, give you your five "common magic" tricks nearly all the time, but not always, and that it depends on whether you're allowed to take two magic keywords, not on Concentration, per se. The reason the Concentrated heros have no Common Magic is the reason I already mentioned: That you can only Concentrate for free if you take a single magic keyword, so such heros don't take Common Magic as well since that would be expensive.

[joshua neff]

In fact, I assumed having both Common Magic & Specialized Magic would be the exception, not the rule. Of the three PCs in my game, two of them didn't start specialized & had the 5 Common Magic picks. The third began as a practitioner & started with no Common Magic. (And now one of the characters is working on focusing his magic...in Common Magic.)

[RaconteurX]

Of course, the player-characters are exceptions (i.e., exceptional)... this is a large part of why they merit both Common Magic and Specialized Magic unless they choose to concentrate.

[Mike Holmes]

OK, I wrote this huge rant on the subject (twice now actually), but just erased it. It all comes down to this. The text is a tad ambiguous on this at some points. But Michael's interperetation seems to be the correct one to me (and most other players as I read them) for a few reasons. What is clear is that it says that all characters get 5 common magic abilities. And whence the rating for these if not from the common magic keyword rated at 17? The more you read, the more it seems clear to me that this is the intention, just not well enumerated.

That doesn't mean that it's impossible for an NPC or even a PC not to have a common magic keyword. But the chargen methods aren't meant to enable creation of every character possible in Glorantha - just a certain set of playable ones. Further, if you read the Advanced Development rules you'll see how "soft" the whole chargen is. Note how in my Shadow World game, I just had you guys wing all the occupations and homeland stuff that I didn't have? None of that, IMO, violates any of the chargen rules as written. It's all suggestions, really, none of it meant in any way to be definitive of all characters, much less of some sort of internal magical physics.

If all the examples have the common magic keyword at 17, and other magic jeyowrds at 17, are they all supposed to be exceptions to some rule that you normally get one or the other, or isn't it more likely that the text just does a bad job of getting across that all characters should have both?

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

Mike,

I don't know what you are trying to say. The rules are very clear regarding magic keywords:

A hero can have the common magic keyword or a specialized magic keyword (both if the narrator allows). If your hero has only one magic keyword, he may concentrate his magic at no additional cost.

(Page 18.)

Michael Schwartz wrote:

Actually, every hero gets five Common Magic picks unless he or she has concentrated his or her specialized magic.

This is not correct. Concentration has nothing to do with it. The Membership section on page 106, that Michael refers to does not discuss how many magic keywords heroes get during character creation. It is, in fact, not about character creation at all.

Michael Schwartz wrote:

Look at the sample characters, both in the book and on the Issaries website. All those without concentrated magic have both Common Magic and a Specialized Magic keyword, save for Galan the Bison Rider, who has only Common Magic by player choice. In the Keywords section (p. 18) of the Heroes chapter, it states that allowing a hero to have both keywords is up to the narrator. However, in the Magical Abilities section (p. 29) of the Abilities chapter, it states that heroes are exceptional and likely have a great deal of magic. It also states that most people have a Common Magic keyword, which the Common Magic section (p. 104) of the Basic Magic chapter reinforces.

The only sample character that we know for sure has concentrated magic is the healer on Issaries' website. (He is a devotee, and devotees must concentrate their magic.) The following characters (ignoring Hengal, page 16 of the rulesbook, since he is not a beginning hero) may have concentrated their magic, but we don't know for sure: Hazeel and Jane from the rulesbook, as well as the Cavalry Soldier, and the Scholar from the website. It is up to the player to decide if he wants to concentrate or not. It seems like a good idea to concentrate, but the rules only state that you are allowed  to do so. Most of the sample characters were written by me, and I know what I intended.

The introduction to the Magical Abilities section (page 29) does not contradict the rule on page 18, quoted above. I.e. it is still up to the narrator to decide how many magic keywords a beginning hero gets. Remember, that we are discussing character creation here. However, the texts on pages 29 and 104 are not about character creation. They simply tell us that most gloranthans have access to common magic.

In short: Kirt got it right from the start. He was asking "about the absolute minimum required by the rules, not what is heavily encouraged", and as far as I can see he himself provided all the right answers.

All the best,

/Peter Nordstrand

[TheLHF]

Side question that I might have missed the answer to: Do you have to write "commen magic" or something like in your narrative or list to get commen magic? Or do all characters have access to any five comman magic abilities, no matter what?

--Victor

[Peter Nordstrand]

Do you have to write "commen magic" or something like in your narrative or list to get commen magic?

Common magic must be included in the narrative. When using the list method, it should be included with the other keywords, but not as part of the 10 other abilities.

Cheers,

/Peter N

[RaconteurX]

Common magic must be included in the narrative. When using the list method, it should be included with the other keywords, but not as part of the 10 other abilities.

Peter is incorrect, sadly. Common Magic does not need to be included in the hero's narrative, unless the player wishes to have additional abilities above and beyond the five granted by default or the narrator forbids the hero from having more than one magic keyword unless he pays part of his or her 100 words.

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi Michael,

I hope I didn't come off as too grumpy earlier.

Peter is incorrect, sadly. Common Magic does not need to be included in the hero's narrative, unless the player wishes to have additional abilities above and beyond the five granted by default or the narrator forbids the hero from having more than one magic keyword unless he pays part of his or her 100 words.

Can you please tell me where the rulesbook says this? I've been proven wrong before, so it wouldn't be that sad, really. However, I can't find any passage that supports what you are saying here. On the contrary, it is clearly stated on page 20 that "you should include the following in your narrative: (snip) Keywords."

All the best,

/Peter