Margin of success and damage

[chade0]

Hi.

I realised that with tRoS game mechanics, damage from weapons (any kind) can become very massive if the user of the weapon is skilled. This is ok, but I find it quite funny that it is possible to cut thruu fine plate armor with a little knife and still cause a level5 wound. This is possible f.ex. your opponent can't defend and you are skilled with your knife.

The same thing with missile weapons.. you can throw knives, rocks and other light object through tough plate, if you're skilled enough.

Has anyone created any house rules for this? F.ex. Does your MoS increase your damage to certain poin onlyt? Is there a limit? Or can you break a fully armored human's skull with bare hands?


I hope you see my point. sorry for my poor English skills.


chade

[Ian Charvill]

See, being a bit of a slacker, I would be happy with these being handwaved as a dagger through the armpit, or a push to the helmet, followed by a fall, followed by a fractured skull.

[Ingenious]

I find it perfectly fine that someone can kill someone in plate with a putty knife if he is skilled enough with its use. Maybe you should just narrate better. Instead of saying that the 'putty knife' as it were, went through the armor... say it went through some weakpoint in it, where it did not cover.
This will be easier to explain should SOMEBODY here finish TFOB or whichever supplement is going to have armor coverage issues in it.
*gives Brian a swift kick in the ass*
If you were to suit up in a full suit of plate, one that was articulated and was severely advanced.. sure the coverage issue would be gone, but then you'd be walking around(if walking can be used to describe that).. and instead of someone engaging you in melee, they'd just have someone with a longbow shoot you. Then you're dead.
So if you're not comfortable with the lethality of this system, make some changes to it. Make everyone half their strength or something, or use variable strength with each attack.

-Ingenious

[Salamander]

Hi.

I realised that with tRoS game mechanics, damage from weapons (any kind) can become very massive if the user of the weapon is skilled. This is ok, but I find it quite funny that it is possible to cut thruu fine plate armor with a little knife and still cause a level5 wound. This is possible f.ex. your opponent can't defend and you are skilled with your knife.

The same thing with missile weapons.. you can throw knives, rocks and other light object through tough plate, if you're skilled enough.

Has anyone created any house rules for this? F.ex. Does your MoS increase your damage to certain poin onlyt? Is there a limit? Or can you break a fully armored human's skull with bare hands?


I hope you see my point. sorry for my poor English skills.


chade

Yeah, I use common sense.

If Mr. A is wielding a knife and attacking Sir B who is wearing harness then Mr. A had best stab for the joints/visor slits and/or try to wrestle and pray Sir B don't kill him first. If Mr. A's player is insistent upon using rules lawyering to kill Sir B instead of thinking about how to do this right, then Mr. A will surely die under the mace/sword/whatever of Sir B.

If C the barbarian comes along and wants to kill Sir B in his harness, then C the barbarian had better use something better than his bare hands to crush the helmet, Might I suggest a hammer, mace or battering ram? Elsewise C the barbarian is going to be enjoying the view of his ruined body lying upon the ground from the vantage point of a pike.

I have heard rumours that ocaissionally an arm or leg of harness was cut by a sword, but I wonder how much of that was user ability and how much of that was a lucky hit right over an impurity in the suit... if it ever happened at all.

I would recommend to you that you advise your players of what to expect in the way of rulings in these situations... But before that, be sure to do some research, if you haven't already.

[Salamander]

I find it perfectly fine that someone can kill someone in plate with a putty knife if he is skilled enough with its use. Maybe you should just narrate better. Instead of saying that the 'putty knife' as it were, went through the armor... say it went through some weakpoint in it, where it did not cover.
This will be easier to explain should SOMEBODY here finish TFOB or whichever supplement is going to have armor coverage issues in it.
*gives Brian a swift kick in the ass*
If you were to suit up in a full suit of plate, one that was articulated and was severely advanced.. sure the coverage issue would be gone, but then you'd be walking around(if walking can be used to describe that).. and instead of someone engaging you in melee, they'd just have someone with a longbow shoot you. Then you're dead.
So if you're not comfortable with the lethality of this system, make some changes to it. Make everyone half their strength or something, or use variable strength with each attack.

-Ingenious

Actually, full harness was pretty much impervious to longbow and cross bow arrows. I believe that the lightest crossbow to penetrate harness required the use of either a crannequin or a windlass to load the darn thing.... in the neighborhood of 200-300 pounds draw weight. Heck, in the renaissance, they were proofing harness with muskets for crying out loud!

[Jake Norwood]

This will be easier to explain should SOMEBODY here finish TFOB or whichever supplement is going to have armor coverage issues in it.
*gives Brian a swift kick in the ass*

What? Do I not work here anymore? Sheesh...

Jake

[Lxndr]

This will be easier to explain should SOMEBODY here finish TFOB or whichever supplement is going to have armor coverage issues in it.
*gives Brian a swift kick in the ass*

What? Do I not work here anymore? Sheesh...

Jake

No, now that you have founded your empire, you have ceased working, delegating all the work to your subordinates while you have slavegirls feed you peeled grapes.  Didn't you know?

[Jake Norwood]

Slavegirls? Grapes?

Is Brian getting those too?

Jake

[Draigh]

No, but he's got the army of eunichs gaurding his home and harem.

[Caz]

I've been using a bit of house rules on it.  If someone strikes metal armours, and damage that exceeds the AV is Bludgeoning, regardless of the weapon type, showing that you didn't cut through it, but kocked the guy around.  I also modify the D6 rolls for armour, if say, a thrust was meant for the armpit, on a 1 or something it might bypass the AV striking only the gambeson or a gusset.

[Jaif]

Let's distinguish between mathematically possible and what's likely.  Sure, you can put a flower-child in plate and watch them die to a ninja-samurai-highlander type, but if your opponents are anywhere near equal caliber than fights between armored individuals armed with knives will be boring as sin.

Seriously, try it with the combat simulator.  Armor's very tough in this game.

If you were to suit up in a full suit of plate, one that was articulated and was severely advanced.. sure the coverage issue would be gone, but then you'd be walking around(if walking can be used to describe that).. and instead of someone engaging you in melee, they'd just have someone with a longbow shoot you.

Full plate armor was not as immobilizing as you make it out to be, and certainly someone wearing full plate can afford a horse, too.

-Jeff

[Ingenious]

Proofing harness against fire-arms eh? How thick and heavy was that? Therefore how many CP would be lost by wearing it? Would that not also penalize endurance rolls further than say averagely thick plate? Sure people were making plate of all shapes sizes thicknesses and quality.. but if it's big, heavy, thick, etc.. it's going to be a bitch to try to use in melee. Even on horseback.
As to coverage issues, I'd like to see that very very soon as my next character is a mix of a guy using a case of rapiers and sorcery... and should he go against a guy in plate, I would like to know some open spots to aim for. Even though this is slightly covered in the codex of battle(i think, well it is somewhere in the core-book)
I agree that armor is tough, but there are always 'weaknesses' to them all. I use that term loosely to describe anything from coverage, to quality, thickness, weight, mobility, a fall hurting more in plate than in leather, etc etc. So in my mind's eye, there is always a way to beat someone in plate.

-Ingenious

[Salamander]

Proofing harness against fire-arms eh? How thick and heavy was that? Therefore how many CP would be lost by wearing it? Would that not also penalize endurance rolls further than say averagely thick plate? Sure people were making plate of all shapes sizes thicknesses and quality.. but if it's big, heavy, thick, etc.. it's going to be a bitch to try to use in melee. Even on horseback.
As to coverage issues, I'd like to see that very very soon as my next character is a mix of a guy using a case of rapiers and sorcery... and should he go against a guy in plate, I would like to know some open spots to aim for. Even though this is slightly covered in the codex of battle(i think, well it is somewhere in the core-book)
I agree that armor is tough, but there are always 'weaknesses' to them all. I use that term loosely to describe anything from coverage, to quality, thickness, weight, mobility, a fall hurting more in plate than in leather, etc etc. So in my mind's eye, there is always a way to beat someone in plate.

-Ingenious

Don't have the sit on my mind off hand, but it was a suit of Greewich Harness from about 1535 or so. The wearer could do handsprings and cartwheels and was not restricted in his movement in any way. The parts were so well fitted that they prevented the passage of a sewing needle contemporary to it. They weighed it at about 50 pounds... Oh yeah... somebody important wore it.... King Henry VIII or somebody like that... It wasn't how thick, but how well made, heat treated, finished and shaped. Thickness did not have as much to do with it as you think...

[Brian Leybourne]

Slavegirls? Grapes?

Is Brian getting those too?

No, but he's got the army of eunichs gaurding his home and harem.

So, he gets the slave girls and all I get is eunichs? That's a bit rough. I want grapes too.

Still, if he doesn't have an army then I can send my eunichs around to steal his slave girls. Then I have it all baby!

Subordinate Brian.

[Caz]

"I would like to know some open spots to aim for."

Here's a little thing I like to tell my classes.
  Put your chin to your chest, put your arms flat to your sides with your palms against your body, and put your legs together.  Everything that's covered is a weakness in plate armour.  Pretty general but it gets the point across.  Time to go out and party!