Hesitance towards Glorantha as a Setting

[Brand_Robins]

I suppose the biggest part of what makes Glorantha is that it is a different world from any other and much of that difference is a deliberate decision to encourage and exploit those differences as gaming material. So when a novice picks a non-human character for play expecting a basically human character with a few cool powers it clashes uncomfortably with what more knowledgable players and authors think.

Actually, I agree with this. The question, then, is how to express this to newbs having trouble without stomping the idea or just saying YGWV.

In the case that started this thread there is also another conflict going on, and I'd like to look at it for a second before going on about my question. One of the things doubtofbuddha's player was concerned with is the conflict between a sort of narratvist ideal of PCs making up the world and defining it through their actions and the established world that is Glorantha. This can be problematic, as a lot of forge-style narrativism doesn't necessarily mesh perfectly with using a setting with official and pre-set canon.

In Ron's "Sorcerer and Sword" he talks about how people like Howard didn't make the world, then have the characters move through it. They made the characters and then had them clash with the world. That kind of credo has become a big part of a lot of narrativist play, and the player was obviously fighting with some version of it when he made comments like "But I was getting frustrated because it just seemed like the already established world stuff was getting in the way of me doing what I wanted to do" and "I want to be able to carve out my own way and have it be possible, because when going into this game I thought that was the premise... But this is a goal oriented game. That is, your character is trying to achieve a certain goals. But if they only way to achieve those goals is through set methods already established, then that's not fun."

So what we've got is a clash/misunderstanding between protagonism through world-forming actions and protagonism through interaction with existing setting bits. I think both are possible, and that there also doesn't have to be as big a clash between the two as we seem to get into.

So, back to the question of how to deal with the PC wanting to play a reincarnated dragonnewt constructively. I have a hard time doing this, even in example, as I know crap all about dragonnewts. However, I might try something like this:

One of the reasons that Dragonnewts have such fixed paths is because they're normally NPC material. Glorantha tends to be very human-o centric in it's PCs, and that's one of the reasons the player is feeling such strain. However, one of the tenants of HeroQuest is that the Hero Wars are about Us vs Them – and that can include Human Vs Not. (This is a discussion of the normal genre tropes of Glorantha. It gives warning that what they are doing is contrary to the normal expectations of the genre, but then attempts to find a way to help the newb negotiate a path between their game and the genre to make both work.)

The PCs struggle to become a dragon or a human could thus become a part of the herowars itself. The PC will have to be clever to do this, following the examples of characters like Jar El or XXX or YYY – all of whom changed the world in fundamental ways. (XXX and YYY would be other people who did big crap to change the world, like the Lunar heroquesters who hold back winter or the Char-Un starting the Skyburn, or other examples that I don't know the world well enough to pull up right now.) These characters had to do quest like XXX and YYY, and you may even want to look at the material about the Red Goddess and how she started as a mortal woman with a gods soul and became the ruler of the sky. The PC would be attempting something on the same order as Sedanya, but with a lesser magnitude, and so should expect to face challenges similar to what she went through. (Insert link to Lhankor Mhy here – use the details that are relevant with direct sources.)

The other thing you, as GM, might want to look at is the time just before the Dragonkill, when humans started interacting with dragons and dragon-newts, even learning Dragon magic. Maybe the character's soul could have come from that time, when forbidden magics were practiced that resulted in dragons rising up to kill the whole region? The PC would have to deal with the fallout of that time and the hate and fear of dragons it causes in everyone else. (Insert links and references here, using details to support the general theme and tone.)

As for the players worries about being able to do it, he should understand that the reason its hard is it is something no one has ever done. In most RPGs people have taken over kingdoms, so doing it isn't new. Becoming a dragon, however, is something new to Glorantha, and so will require the player to make up a lot of it – going into the realm of making up setting himself. (And thus we come back to the protagonist clashing with the setting and defining it by that conflict, rather than as a character interacting passively with an already established rule.)

[Mike Holmes]

So what we've got is a clash/misunderstanding between protagonism through world-forming actions and protagonism through interaction with existing setting bits. I think both are possible, and that there also doesn't have to be as big a clash between the two as we seem to get into.

Insightful. You're talking here simply about the preference for setting based narrativism (Glorantha, as ROn frequently points out) or character based (freer settings). I think that's certainly key.

Mike

[simon_hibbs]

Dragons are even worse because they're not D&D dragons...

You mean it would be better if they were? ;)

So what can be said to a novice narrator who asks about a dragonnewt character? Don't allow it seems  rather dogmatic, There's no canon so you're on your own is accurate but not exactly helpful, as is YGWV. That leaves giving a few pointers based on the individual writer's idea of dragonnewts.

That's a very short list. I think there are a whole ton of options available. The easy way out is to play a Dragonewt from an unusual background - raised by humans; from a small Dragonewt community isolated for centuries; from a foreign Dragonewt culture on the other side of Glorantha, etc. This way the chracter knows as little about the part of Glorantha the game is set in as the player, and there's enormous freedom of interpretation available. You don't have to know a thing about Glorantha to go this route.

I realsie I'm not being very helpful and I wish I was getting across better. I suppose I have been playing in Glorantha a long time, but even back in the old days I only owned a small fraction of the cannon sources available ( no copy of WB&RM, Nomad Gods, or any copies of Wyrms Footnotes, etc) and just made do with the RQ2 boxed set and Cults of Prax, then later a copy of Cults of Terror for almost a decade and it never stoped me from running games. The same goes for other games I'm not a cannon nerd for, the cannon is all fine and dandy but my game belongs to me and my players. I don't think saying that is any kind of cop-out.


Simon Hibbs

[Mike Holmes]

The same goes for other games I'm not a cannon nerd for, the cannon is all fine and dandy but my game belongs to me and my players. I don't think saying that is any kind of cop-out.

Simon, no, it's not a cop out. Nobody has said it is. What's a cop out is suggesting that this will work for every other player that's not you, just because it works for you.

Are you saying that?

Mike

[Brand_Robins]

The same goes for other games I'm not a cannon nerd for, the cannon is all fine and dandy but my game belongs to me and my players. I don't think saying that is any kind of cop-out.

No it isn't. I didn't mean to say it was either. My whole point was that just because it works for you (it obviously does!) it doesn't work for everyone. You've got a mastery not just of Glorantha, but of futzing with canon in general, I think, and that makes it easy for you.

It also makes you a great resource. I know I've learned from your posts in the past -- it's just occasionally been difficult to bridge the gap between our genre understandings. I'm not trying to slag the old guard here, I'm just trying to find ways for the "Them" and the "Us" to be able to understand each other more and communicate more easily and effectively.


Edit: Crap, cross posted with Mike.

[simon_hibbs]

I'm not trying to slag the old guard here, I'm just trying to find ways for the "Them" and the "Us" to be able to understand each other more and communicate more easily and effectively.

Sure, and i think this thread has been better for this than any previous similar thread on the HW/Glorantha forums.

I'm realy very pleased with this forum, it enables discussions that are strongly related to HW and Glorantha, but that are a few steps back from it, allowing a wider perspective where a similar discussion on the HW list might be criticised for being off topic.


Simon Hibbs

[Donald]

This can be problematic, as a lot of forge-style narrativism doesn't necessarily mesh perfectly with using a setting with official and pre-set canon.

I can't see the conflict myself, deciding to play HQ in Glorantha is no different from deciding to play Sorcerer in 1920s New York. In either case the decision to introduce space travel to that setting takes it outside canon creating two difficulties which the GM has to resolve. Firstly does everyone agree with what's meant by space travel in that setting and secondly what other effects does that have - such as where are the spaceships launched from? who makes them? who flies them? etc. Asking an expert either on Glorantha or early 20th Century history doesn't help because it's up to the players and GM although I suspect the Gloranthan expert is likely to be more tolerant of the question.

In Ron's "Sorcerer and Sword" he talks about how people like Howard didn't make the world, then have the characters move through it. They made the characters and then had them clash with the world. That kind of credo has become a big part of a lot of narrativist play, and the player was obviously fighting with some version of it when he made comments like "But I was getting frustrated because it just seemed like the already established world stuff was getting in the way of me doing what I wanted to do" and "I want to be able to carve out my own way and have it be possible, because when going into this game I thought that was the premise... But this is a goal oriented game. That is, your character is trying to achieve a certain goals. But if they only way to achieve those goals is through set methods already established, then that's not fun."

Then someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of Glorantha. *Anything* is possible there but there exist ways of doing things that have been tried before which make them easier. I guess the implication of that is that new players and narrators should get the hang of interactions and heroquesting before creating characters who have no lesser goals than changing the world by themselves.

This reminds me other another difference between Glorantha and many RPGs which is community. I am unaware of any Gloranthan hero who acted alone and the greatest spent years gathering support before they reached the point where they could even attempt their goals. So when a player has a personal goal for their character which is going to require a lot of magical resources the narrator and player need to agree a community who can, in their Glorantha, reasonably provide those resources and have an incentive to do so.

[Donald]

Dragons are even worse because they're not D&D dragons...

You mean it would be better if they were? ;)

In the sense of being more manageable for the GM. The only way I can see using a dragon in Glorantha with any normal group of player characters is as something to avoid - an irresistable force acting in GM defined way.

That's a very short list. I think there are a whole ton of options available. The easy way out is to play a Dragonewt from an unusual background - raised by humans; from a small Dragonewt community isolated for centuries; from a foreign Dragonewt culture on the other side of Glorantha, etc. This way the chracter knows as little about the part of Glorantha the game is set in as the player, and there's enormous freedom of interpretation available. You don't have to know a thing about Glorantha to go this route.

I would say that fits under "There's no canon so you're on your own". Basically you've created two new cultures, one Dragonnewt and one human which are friendly to one another and the GM has to fill them out although much can be done through play. Not easy for someone who is new to both the rules and background.

I realsie I'm not being very helpful and I wish I was getting across better. I suppose I have been playing in Glorantha a long time, but even back in the old days I only owned a small fraction of the cannon sources available ( no copy of WB&RM, Nomad Gods, or any copies of Wyrms Footnotes, etc) and just made do with the RQ2 boxed set and Cults of Prax, then later a copy of Cults of Terror for almost a decade and it never stoped me from running games.

I suspect it was easier then because RQ hadn't drifted so far from D&D that importing ideas and characters from that world clashed. Now the HQ book gives the outline of ten cultures and it's obvious that's only a small sample. I doubt the lack of WBRM was a handicap, for a long time I didn't realise they were set in the same world. In some ways the Internet has made things more difficult, now a GM can ask a question and get several conflicting answers and references to numerous obscure sources whereas previously you might get the chance to ask someone who had once spoken to Greg.

The same goes for other games I'm not a cannon nerd for, the cannon is all fine and dandy but my game belongs to me and my players. I don't think saying that is any kind of cop-out.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[Brand_Robins]

I can't see the conflict myself, deciding to play HQ in Glorantha is no different from deciding to play Sorcerer in 1920s New York.

Except that if you pick up HeroQuest you're defaulted to Glorantha, where if you pick up Sorcerer you're not defaulted to New York. So if you're in 1920's New York with space travel you've chosen that setting for a reason -- probably a reason having to do with what your PCs want. Glorantha, otoh, doesn't get chosen so much as is chosen for you.

Also, it's way easier to get information about 1920's New York. Reams of it, vast copious massive volumes of it, or just easy and clearly written pamphlet sized documents about -- or anything in between. We also already have a lot of "genre" familiarity with 1920s New York as we've all seen dozens of books, movies, pulps, comics, etc that are set there. Getting the same information about Glorantha can be like pulling teeth and most of us won't be nearly as familiar with the genre as with the roaring 20s in a city that's less than 100 miles from where we live.

The difference in choice, in availability of information, and in player perception is a narrow and tricksy issue -- but it is one that does effect how people view the world and how happy they are with it. It's also probably one of the reasons why a significant chunk of people are playing HeroQuest -- but not playing in Glorantha.

Then someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of Glorantha.

That would be the whole point, now wouldn't it? The question is how to get them to understand it while still allowing for their Glorantha to vary, and so and so and so on....

I guess the implication of that is that new players and narrators should get the hang of interactions and heroquesting before creating characters who have no lesser goals than changing the world by themselves.

A fair implication, and one I'd agree with in general. Of course, to be fair we don't know that the character had no lesser goals -- only that the player was worried about the character EVER being able to achieve the greatest goal. This is decently useful advice, but a bit prejudicial. What you say next, however....

This reminds me other another difference between Glorantha and many RPGs which is community. I am unaware of any Gloranthan hero who acted alone and the greatest spent years gathering support before they reached the point where they could even attempt their goals.

Now that is good, useful info about using the Gloranthan genre to make non-standard ideas work! You must get community support -- lots of community support. That's part of the genre that a lot of newbs don't get, and that needs to be shown, demonstrated, and explained to help them get it.

So the question is how would someone go about getting community support to help them become a dragon and bridge the gap between dragons and humanity? I know you suggest the narrator come up with it -- and that's valid -- but are there any existing Gloranthan communities that might be swayed? The guys in the east who worship dragons already? Dragon-newt allies, lunar rebels, magicians who've lived since before the dragon kill? Anything?

[buserian]

Brand said:

Now that is good, useful info about using the Gloranthan genre to make non-standard ideas work! You must get community support -- lots of community support. That's part of the genre that a lot of newbs don't get, and that needs to be shown, demonstrated, and explained to help them get it.

So the question is how would someone go about getting community support to help them become a dragon and bridge the gap between dragons and humanity? I know you suggest the narrator come up with it -- and that's valid -- but are there any existing Gloranthan communities that might be swayed? The guys in the east who worship dragons already? Dragon-newt allies, lunar rebels, magicians who've lived since before the dragon kill? Anything?

All of the above:

The guys in the east who worship dragons already. They have always paid attention to what is going on in Dragon Pass.

Dragon-newt allies -- as mentioned a couple of times in this thread, I think, the Servants of the Almighty Dragons (in Masters of Luck and Death) are almost custom-designed for this guy.

Lunar rebels -- well, Heortling rebels, anyway -- see below.

Magicians who have lived since before the Dragonkill -- Forang Farosh, in the city of Tink in Dragon Pass, was alive during the EWF era, and knows a lot of draconic lore. Also, one of Kallyr's companions, Orlaront Dragonman, is an expert on dragons. There has been speculation for several years that these two are actually the same person, but I don't know if it was ever decided. The Dragonrise supplement will hopefully answer this.

Other options: there are dragonewts in Ralios who don't seem to be quite the same as the ones in Dragon Pass, they might have different ideas about how to deal with humans.

There is some myserious place in Prax (near Tada's High Tumulus) that seems to have something to do with dragonewts; Obscure Plinth? Not much is known about it, but it might be a good place to start, in terms of being able to make up what you want about it.

And, if all else fails, any EWF ruin could provide at least a place to start.

buserian

[Brand_Robins]

And, if all else fails, any EWF ruin could provide at least a place to start.

Good stuff. Heck, if doubtofbuddha's character doesn't use this I may well end up using it -- maybe as an enemy for the PCs, someone who is doing just what that PC wanted to do.

It'd be the start of a good story at the very least.

[doubtofbuddha]

Honestly, the player moved beyond his draconic concept long ago.

So he won't be using it. However I have to admit some temptation to use the idea myself. I imagine I could do all sorts of things with it.

Maybe make a Heortling foil who is attempting to get into the same city as the PCs with the intent of awakening the dragon (after she makes of with the local lore) this would be most... "counterproductive" to the PCs goals.

[Donald]

Except that if you pick up HeroQuest you're defaulted to Glorantha, where if you pick up Sorcerer you're not defaulted to New York. So if you're in 1920's New York with space travel you've chosen that setting for a reason -- probably a reason having to do with what your PCs want. Glorantha, otoh, doesn't get chosen so much as is chosen for you.

Also, it's way easier to get information about 1920's New York. Reams of it, vast copious massive volumes of it, or just easy and clearly written pamphlet sized documents about -- or anything in between. We also already have a lot of "genre" familiarity with 1920s New York as we've all seen dozens of books, movies, pulps, comics, etc that are set there. Getting the same information about Glorantha can be like pulling teeth and most of us won't be nearly as familiar with the genre as with the roaring 20s in a city that's less than 100 miles from where we live.

There's reams of information about Glorantha, a lot of it available on the web. Much of it is incomplete and contradictory but the same is true of information about New York, particularly once you include fiction set there. From this side of the Atlantic I have as much reliable information about Glamour as I have about New York. The difference seems to be that in a fantasy setting some GMs have a desire to know everything about the world so that their players can't throw them whereas in a real world setting they assume their knowledge is complete.

The difference in choice, in availability of information, and in player perception is a narrow and tricksy issue -- but it is one that does effect how people view the world and how happy they are with it. It's also probably one of the reasons why a significant chunk of people are playing HeroQuest -- but not playing in Glorantha.

Which shows that although Glorantha may be the default, HQ is not Glorantha dependant. The decision may be more separate in Sorcerer but the choice is still there in HQ. It's certainly true that some people are inspired by the background while some find it too alien and confusing. That was true twenty years ago with RuneQuest and there's no reason why it should be different now when Glorantha has a lot more background.

So the question is how would someone go about getting community support to help them become a dragon and bridge the gap between dragons and humanity?

Busarian has covered the details pretty well but I would just like to add that a community won't give their support unless there's something in it for them. It may be repayment of an obligation incurred to the PC, it may be a collateral benefit from the heroquest but in game mechanics terms the PC needs a good relationship with the community and considerable persuasive skills. So the first thing a player with world changing goals needs is to find a community that has some sympathy with that objective and build up a relationship with them.

[Brand_Robins]

The difference seems to be that in a fantasy setting some GMs have a desire to know everything about the world so that their players can't throw them whereas in a real world setting they assume their knowledge is complete.

Actually, I think it comes down to a comfort with "genre." While we may not have many more "hard facts" about a real setting than we do about a fantasy setting, we're all familiar with the tropes of the real world setting at a very base level. I've seen New York in so many movies and books that even if there is a lot of contradiction, I still have a lot of the basics down at a subconcious level. I may even be wrong about them -- but at least I feel confident.

Glorantha, on the other hand, is something whose tropes I've never seen in a movie, nor read all that many books about. I don't have a dad who lived there, or a general-world consensus knowledge about it.

It isn't about being comfortable with the details, or knowing all the details, those are just the symptoms that we think are important. What really matters is being comfortable with the underlying tropes of the setting/genre. You can know every single detail of a setting and still not be able to use it, and you can know very few facts about a setting but use it with no problem, depending on how well you grasp the genre underlying it.

(I'd also suggest that the reason that guys like Smion are able to get into and modify any setting with such facility is because they're talented genre readers. The innate ability to subconciously break something down to genre terms frees them of the dependancy on setting "facts" by giving them the confidence that they can match the setting "feel" without worrying about mitutia.)

[pete_darby]

So, chaps, what are the genre conventions of Glorantha?

I'm just riffing here, so bear with me...

1. Myth Matters
2. Community Matters
3. Three mutually hostile otherworlds have collided, creating the world. You can get magic from them.
4. Monsters are people too, but they still hate you.
5. Using myth makes you powerful: abusing myth will make it bite you BADLY

Heh... google for genre conventions and click "I feel lucky." It's a small web after all... and, at number 9. Chad Underkoffler on 4-colour...