NEW SA Category: Secrets

[Alan]

Knowledge that Prince Karelva killed his first wife

Pretend I'm a player with this Secret as an SA.

The only concievable uses I can think of for it are 1) blackmailing the Prince and hense rolls involving said interaction, and 2) ruining the prince by revealing the secret.  Niether of these sound like SA material.  They sound more like 1 shot bonuses that a player would be awarded by the GM.  Mechanically they seem to me to be better suited to be treated as a Gift than an SA.

A gift doesn't depend on something as ephemaral as a secret.  

Actions where the SA dice would apply:

Blackmailing the prince
Keeping the secret from his mistress
Taking the body to a secret grave
Fighting the prince
Fighting the dead woman's lover
Persuading the prince to abdicate
Persuading the prince not to abdicate
etc.

It has the potential to quickly become a whole, intensive subplot.

[Valamir]

A gift doesn't depend on something as ephemaral as a secret.  

Don't see any reason why not.

Allies is a Gift:  it lasts until the ally stops being your ally...such as if he's killed.

Ambidexterity is a Gift:  not very useful if you lose a hand in combat.

Beauty is a gift:  easily disfigured

Good Reputatoin is a gift:  easily lost

Patron is a gift:  loseable like an ally.

See no reason why Secret wouldn't work as a gift.  Losing it because the secret is revealed seems no more ephemeral than losing any of the above.

I thoroughly like the idea of secrets playing a feature role in a suitable campaign.  I'm just not seeing the SA mechanics as the best way to get there.

[Ingenious]

No offense intended to anyone below, though the reasoning for my frustration is not the forum or anyone in it.. it is my life and the lack of free time that I am now so used to having.(havent had time in 4 days to do ONE damn thing I wanted to really do.)Coming from the guy that was going to have 7 months of peace and freedom ahead of him... it is ironic.. yet maddening.
Lest you forget Val...

Accuracy is a gift... used EVERY FREAKING ATTACK THAT HITS.
SA's are not one time uses, neither or gifts or flaws.
Gifts and flaws should be used everyday of the character's life..
SA's are used at the appropriate occasion as set by the GM.
So if the secret is big enough to warrant a character be willing to die for it, to kill for it, etc.. then let it be an SA. Make it a new catagory for all I care.. or classify the secret as a drive, passion, etc.... just don't say something can not be an SA. That's crazy. I dislike that line of thinking very much.

The different categories of SA's to me are meant to help people think about certain aspects of their character's philosophy, life, loves, hates, etc. For someone to say that "we need only one category of SA's" is crap IMHO. And even more craptastic is the idea of limiting people in what they want their character to care about deeply.  SA's are *major* parts of a character.. to limit someone in creating a major aspect of their character is crazy.. and even more craptastic than only having one SA category.

Secrets have the capacity to destroy entire families, entire dynasties, careers, etc. If you think this is not major enough to be considered an SA.. then you are most likely close-minded and stubborn. A character can choose to guard it, defending the person(s) involved in the secret from the harm of it being released.. or it can be used by evil people to find out what a particular secret is.. in order to get revenge by destroying someone with it... The latter requiring there to be a secret though.. so most likely this would be a destiny SA.. the other would be more like a passion..

-Ingenious

[Valamir]

Ing...WTF?

Gifts and flaws should be used everyday of the character's life..

Gifts are used every freaking day?  Where is that written.  Are you really pestering your allies every day?  Are you attacking someone every day?

"Gifts represent the more unique aspects of your character...the odds and ends"  "These are special abilities, problems...unique quirks"

There is nothing particularly fantastical about them.  Knowing a deep secret about someone that could give you an advantage easily qualifies as a Gift and can easily be treated like one and defined to have pretty much any game effect, mechanical or roleplayed, that you wish.

For someone to say that "we need only one category of SA's" is crap IMHO.

You should read things more carefully before posting with hostility.

Mike's point was that curretnly as written there are slightly different rules for each category of SA.  Different ways to spend them.  Different ways to earn them.  In practice this has been seen (by pretty much everybody, including Jake) as being unnecessary.  There is no reason to mechanically seperate the different forms of SA (except for Luck which has already been discussed elsewhere isn't really an SA).  They should all be treated the same at which point it doesn't matter whether you call it a Drive or a Passion for game purposes.

Secrets have the capacity to destroy entire families, entire dynasties, careers, etc. If you think this is not major enough to be considered an SA.. then you are most likely close-minded and stubborn.

Are you reading comprehension challenged today?

I've repeatedly said that I like the idea of secrets in the game.  The only question is whether the SA mechanics will work well.  This has nothing to do with whether they are "major enough" this has to do with the moment to moment actions of in play mechanics of awarding dice and using dice.

Having played the game and seen how SAs are supposed to work and the sorts of rolls they get called on for and the sorts of things that additional points are awarded for, it is my opinion that SAs are not the most mechanically effective way to manage what Alan is looking to accomplish in the game.

Reasons why?
1) Secrets lack the emotional committment of Drives and Passion and Faith.  
2) They aren't particularly spiritual in nature.
3) None of the other SAs can up and disappear the way a secret could if its revealed.
4) There aren't really any good reasons to award the dice for it.  Alan's list above doesn't really work for me.  I can't see why knowing that the prince killed his wife would give dice for fighting the wife's lover...what's being represented by this.  How would knowing a secret about person A help to kill person B.  If its because of emotional rage, or desire for justice, or being fired up this is already covered by Passions, Drives, and Concious.
5) No other SA represents knowledge.  Knowledge is useful, but it is inert.  SAs are about passion and committment.  A character's feelings towards a secret and how he intends to use it might well be full of passion and committment.  At which point its just become one of the existing SAs..."Drive: Use the secret knowledge of the murder to destroy the prince"  "Passion: Avenge the murder of the princes wife"

Defining secrets as a seperate SA is like forcing a square peg in a round hole.  You can make it work, but I don't think the results will be nearly as good as what Alan would like them to be.

A gift on the other hand would work quite well.  Any aspect of the secret that was desired could be built into the gift.  It could have some of the attributes of an Ally only the Ally would be working under blackmail instead of favor.  It could provide bonus dice (or a TN bonus) to persuasion rolls when attempting to manipulate someone who doesn't want the secret to get out.  It could Major and Minor versions which could represent either how badly the target doesn't want the secret to get out (which could not be modeled by SAs) or how important the target is.  And, should the secret come out in the open for one major impact it would then be gone, much the same way as Ambidextrous is gone if you chop off someone's hand, or Ally is gone if the ally gets killed.  

In short, just about any game mechanic effect Alan could envision could be taken as part of a gift.  And THEN any emotional weight that a character feels related to that knowledge could also be taken as a Drive or Passion SA.  So you can still have that effect, but its best achieved by making the secret itself a gift and making the character's emotional attachment a Drive or Passion.

[Alan]

However, a gift is a tool the character uses - it does not reward the player for creating a series events that elaborate on an idea.  The latter is why I would make a Secret an SA.

BTW despite their name SA's are not about "spiritual" things, they're about emotional things - or things character's feel that give them spirit - the will to perform above the call of duty.

Again, I'm not arguing that this is the only way to handle Secrets, only that it is a valud way for some settings.

[Jasper]

But Alan, not just any old secret has emotional weight behind it, which is why reward is built into SAs.  There are plenty of things a character could do to create an interesting series of events, including building off common themes or whatever, but only if the action supports the character's most intense feelings should it be rewarded.  This was Ralph's point.  If and only if a secret has important meaning behind it, and compels a character to action, it should be an SA.  If, as you say, it's just a tool, then let it be a Gift (or maybe a Flaw, if it's a torturous secret to keep?).

[Alan]

Of course not every secret should get an SA.  Not every drive, passion, or faith is eligable to be an SA either.

I offered this as a cool idea which could be used in some cases where the group wanted to emphasize secrets as a theme.  I have not been impressed by how the respondents have hammered on it.  

Let's agree to disagree and call this topic closed.