Dreamation 2004

[Dregg]

Well I'm back from what was a mixed blessing for me.
I have to say the Double Exposure people are some of the most attentive people in the Universe. I almost felt loved like a wee Lad. The whole team made sure I was happy and content and bent over backwards for Chapter 13 Press and I-CON. Hell they even got the keys to the I-CON suite and helped us run a membership party. Double Exposure Rawks on Toast with Jelly and a glass of milk.

On the Down Side

RPG interest seemed to be very low, alot of GM's did not seem to get their games off, but the ones that did got quality players. I had 5 Demos slotted and they were all no shows. Alot of people put this to LARPing (which seemed to be the fav activity there), but the atmosphere was great none the less. I had the Pleasure of hanging out with Chris Adams (Aetherco) and talking shop, as well as Social Games and the creators of the Ophidian CCG. If anything the contacts I made during the con were priceless and It was nice to be known in some of the little circles. I ran into one of the Burning Wheel people who did manage to pull of a Improv demo, but BW has a good east coast following so that is to be expected.

Would I try another Double Exposure con for Indie gaming? Hell Yea!
I would like to try and get a bunch of the Forgers to go to DexCon over the summer months. Mayhap we can provide such a presance that we can drag people into Demos.

There has to be a way to compete wirh the LAPRers, and the CCGers. I'm thinking of stealing the Idea form Kenzer and Co. Setting up a neat little mini's dispaly and run combat demos at a table. I do believe BW does something Simular in tactic, and It's a great way to pull people into the system.

Dregg

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Dregg,

What a valuable set of feedback - thanks for presenting it.

There's been a lot of discussion in these forums about the trade-offs and relative merits between at-the-booth demos (like the CCG companies) and scheduled long-term demos.

I tend to favor the former in big conventions like GenCon, and the latter at small conventions. Luke is obviously one of the best people to consult about the way to break down small-convention tactics into the best combination for a given company.

Best,
Ron

[AdAstraGames]

My demo minion at Dreamation had nothing but good things to say about the show.  The staff fed him, the staff said "Hey, you want me to watch the stuff while you go to the dealer room?", the staff brought him lemonade without him asking for it.

He was very pleased with where he got placed; his demo table was right in the atrium leading to the ballrooms, where nobody could go by without seeing him.

His first comment was "If you want me to go to DEXCON, I'm perfectly happy to do so!"

He did about 30 of the "table demos" and had three people come through and play the game, ran out of flyers, but had a good time.

[Dregg]

My demo minion at Dreamation had nothing but good things to say about the show.  The staff fed him, the staff said "Hey, you want me to watch the stuff while you go to the dealer room?", the staff brought him lemonade without him asking for it.

He was very pleased with where he got placed; his demo table was right in the atrium leading to the ballrooms, where nobody could go by without seeing him.

His first comment was "If you want me to go to DEXCON, I'm perfectly happy to do so!"

He did about 30 of the "table demos" and had three people come through and play the game, ran out of flyers, but had a good time.

The Con was awsome, and Double Exposure is one of the best teams I have dealt with so far. They made me feel so at home I did not want to leave. My issue was with the RPG attendance. If you were not hawking CCG's or card games, you were pretty bored. I seen a demo and met your Minion over at Dreamation, the game looks solid, and If you want to come play at I-CON, please let me know.

I too will most likely go to Dexcon as well, I just hope with the bigger attendance RPGs will get more exposure. I think we should Do a Indie Forge Presance there, I'm Sure Vinnie would give us what we needed to make it an awsome experience.
Hell What He did for I-CON has already gave him a seat in Heaven =)

Dregg

[AdAstraGames]

James (the minion) said that he got pitched to go to I-CON and grabbed a flyer...where there was about 7 column inches of text devoted to gaming, most of it hyping electronic games, internet games, and computer games...

We're interested, but we need to know more.

Come to my web site (in my signature file) and post in the "convention support" topic of my BBS with more details on I-CON.

In terms of demoing RPGs (and to a lesser extent, wargames) at conventions, you run into a psychology problem.

Psych problem 1:

People come to these things to (generally) have fun with their friends.  The guy who wants to try "something new" tends to do not only be sold by your presentation, but has to convince his friends to try it too.

It's sort of like picking up a girl at a bar -- you're not just auditioning her, you're also trying to get her friends to think kindly of you, because when she comes back from dancing, she's going to compare notes...

In particular, blocked out chunks of time (while good from a con organizer's perspective) mean that it heightens the opportunity cost of playing the game -- to wit "What am I missing while I spend 2 hours here?", because everyone knows all the GOOD stuff is scheduled to run at the same time. :)

Psych problem 2:  

People associate RPGs with "long span of time".  This is why my demo takes 5-10 minutes (and James put together two tricks with that demo that throw two more features of the game into it in those 10 minutes...)  What can you do to promote your game in 5 minutes?

Some suggestions:

Do not say "Hey, wanna play my new game?"  Say something akin to "Hey, wanna play an orc off to capture the Elvish Princess?" -- give them a hook, something they havn't seen before.  Ours is "Hey, wanna blow up a chocolate?"

Come with a buddy.  Seriously.  Sitting at a table, alone, looking to lure other players into your game is like sitting with a great bit sign over your head...and the sign says "Loser!"  Having two people means that someone else will go "Huh.  I guess if he's already GOT someone there, it can't suck too much..."  Yeah, it's silly primate psychology, but it works.

Have your demo be done in under half an hour.  That way, if a group shows up and one person wants to try it, the compulsion to say "Uh, maybe later..." to stay with their primate band is greatly reduced.  Your demo should be rehearsed and scripted, and should showcase what your game does that nobody else does...which is why my demo showcases the 3-D part of the game.

Note that the above is fairly generic advice -- it's stuff I learned the hard way demoing AV:T.  It's not a criticism of your demo, since I havn't seen it.

My last three pieces of advice should go without saying, but sadly, sometimes need to be said:

1) Don't Throw Feces.  By this, I mean, "Don't knock somebody else's game."  If they want to talk about their half-dragon/half-Klingon Cyborg Ninja with Atomic Breath and the Super Kewl "Eviscerate everybody within 90 feet" feat, let them for a little bit -- they're telling you what they like.   Show them how they can do something similarly cool in your game.  (In my market niche, the trick is getting folks to come off as being less than grognards to the Clix-games players.  In private, we all agree that the Clix-games are a really implementation of a crappy set of game mechanics.  But telling them that AV:T is a "better game, because it's more realistic" won't get them to sit down and try it.)  Knowing a bit about their game (like "Ever had your fighter take 4 crossbow bolts in the chest, fall off a cliff and run away?") lets you segue into a feature of your game ("How would you like a game with a more realistic combat engine, that's just as fast and a lot more fun?")

2) Rehearse.  Practice your pitch.  Have fun.  Sales is a skill.  Being able to make eye contact and conversation is a learned trait.  Be outgoing.  If you're going to sit and fume because nobody's gonna come by, nobody's ever gonna come by.

3) Grooming matters.  Wear something that promotes your game, be there on time, look like you havn't come off of an all-night bender, smell like you have a passing acquaintance with soap and water.


OK, putting away the soap box and taking off the Gonzo Marketing Hat.

[Helvetian]

The Con was awsome, and Double Exposure is one of the best teams I have dealt with so far. They made me feel so at home I did not want to leave. My issue was with the RPG attendance. If you were not hawking CCG's or card games, you were pretty bored. I seen a demo and met your Minion over at Dreamation, the game looks solid, and If you want to come play at I-CON, please let me know.

I too will most likely go to Dexcon as well, I just hope with the bigger attendance RPGs will get more exposure. I think we should Do a Indie Forge Presance there, I'm Sure Vinnie would give us what we needed to make it an awsome experience.
Hell What He did for I-CON has already gave him a seat in Heaven =)

Dregg

The RPG attendance bothered us too, believe me.  Still working on what happened there.  We have a few ideas on fixes for DEXCON.

We loved having Chapter 13, I-CON and Ad Astra at DREAMATION (and the others, of course!), and you can all be certain that Vinny will be happy to accommodate any company that wants to join us for any Double Exposure event.  I'm just sorry I didn't find this forum before the convention, to extend an invitation to the posters here.  I'm letting my brain rest for a week or so before turning my attention to July, but that doesn't mean companies shouldn't feel free to prod me gently, if interested.

Thanks for the kind words, folks. :)

Becca
Company Liaison
Double Exposure

[Helvetian]

The Con was awsome, and Double Exposure is one of the best teams I have dealt with so far. They made me feel so at home I did not want to leave. My issue was with the RPG attendance. If you were not hawking CCG's or card games, you were pretty bored. I seen a demo and met your Minion over at Dreamation, the game looks solid, and If you want to come play at I-CON, please let me know.

I too will most likely go to Dexcon as well, I just hope with the bigger attendance RPGs will get more exposure. I think we should Do a Indie Forge Presance there, I'm Sure Vinnie would give us what we needed to make it an awsome experience.
Hell What He did for I-CON has already gave him a seat in Heaven =)

Dregg

Double Exposure has always provided a place for less known companies to get the exposure they deserve.  Where Dregg and I-CON were located was a set of six tables near the elevator, three across and set back-to-back.  If enough companies are interested, he'd be happy to just give you that section to share.

Double Exposure provides free memberships and demo space to company representatives, with permission to sell from the table.  We also provide access to our staff suite, where reps can eat for free all weekend.  DEXCON's program book is typically finished much earlier and sent out as a whole entity in May, so there will be ample time to advertise tournaments and get players pre-registered for your games.

Becca


Edited to note that DEXCON 7 is a five-day convention being held July 14-18, 2004.  Something to keep in mind while planning. :)

[Mike Holmes]

Double Exposure is one of the best teams I have dealt with so far.

Seems to be the consensus. That's great. Anyone have a link to other Cons they do?

Mike

[Helvetian]

Double Exposure is one of the best teams I have dealt with so far.

Seems to be the consensus. That's great. Anyone have a link to other Cons they do?

Mike

Vinny (our Grand Poobah) is working on updating the 2004 events list today, so it should be posted tomorrow.  The Double Exposure website can be found at http://www.dexposure.com.

Per Vinny:

Angel's Grace: March 5 - 7
Third Time's The Charm (SYS): April 2-4
*Spring Gathering 2004: April 23-25
The Memorial Day BBQ: May 29-31
*DEXCON 7: July 14-18, 2004
*Southern Exposure: Sept 30 - Oct 3
LugosiCon: October 29-31
We are also scheduling SUPERLARP 3 and Lovicon 8, but do not yet have final dates

Many of the smaller events we run are LARP-specific (most related to our Avatar System), though where we also run other tracks has been noted with an asterisk.  I should also note that Southern Exposure is new this year, and taking the time and location formerly claimed for the now-retired ShoreCon.

I'd be more than happy to answer any questions, either here or by email (becca@dexposure.com).

Becca

[Dregg]

Double Exposure is one of the best teams I have dealt with so far.

Seems to be the consensus. That's great. Anyone have a link to other Cons they do?

Mike

I'm hoping we can get a Indie FOrge Presence for mayhaps Dexcon in July. By myself Chapter 13 press wa not a grabber, but if we had a Forge table we would be Mighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will talk to Becca and Vinnie to see if that can be easily possible... And I can verse myself in some other forge stuff so If Bad Muthas or DREX does not go off, I can pick up and go on something else.

hey if D20 vendors can huddle like vulutres to the kill, why can't us Indie designers.

Dregg

[Helvetian]

I'm hoping we can get a Indie FOrge Presence for mayhaps Dexcon in July. By myself Chapter 13 press wa not a grabber, but if we had a Forge table we would be Mighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will talk to Becca and Vinnie to see if that can be easily possible... And I can verse myself in some other forge stuff so If Bad Muthas or DREX does not go off, I can pick up and go on something else.

hey if D20 vendors can huddle like vulutres to the kill, why can't us Indie designers.

Dregg

Absolutely possible.  Just tell me how many tables will cover your needs, and they're yours. :)  And the great thing about being all together is that if you can help cover the demo/display tables for each other, you can also be taking turns getting out and playing (and hopefully running some tournaments, too!).  We want you guys to have fun there.

In another thread, Trey beat me to the idea of a combined advertisement to cover several companies who otherwise can't really afford their own ad yet.  I'd love to include something like that in our program book for DEXCON, if it happens.  We do swap merchandise for ad space, so if there's interest, just let me know.

Becca

[Dregg]

[quote="HelvetianAbsolutely possible.  Just tell me how many tables will cover your needs, and they're yours. :)  And the great thing about being all together is that if you can help cover the demo/display tables for each other, you can also be taking turns getting out and playing (and hopefully running some tournaments, too!).  We want you guys to have fun there.

In another thread, Trey beat me to the idea of a combined advertisement to cover several companies who otherwise can't really afford their own ad yet.  I'd love to include something like that in our program book for DEXCON, if it happens.  We do swap merchandise for ad space, so if there's interest, just let me know.

Becca[/quote]

Becca the issue I most fear is again the lack of attention RPG's got at Dreamation. I have some Ideas that might cure that issue. It's an old problem that I find at I-CON as well. People love to stop by and play a 15 -20 minute card game, but if they have to stay for an hour or two... heavens forbid. As RPG designers we have to come up with a way for players to emmerse themselves in a story or game for a small amout of time, but walk away feeling that they actually took away the flavor of the RPG.
I'm experimenting with a Card based RPG that might lead for a quick demo, but until the theory is playteseted I'm back in the same boat.
Yes, you are right though. If we all were manning a booth, we could take shifts so we could run programming always refering to Indie Forge besides just our own companies.
BW should chime in on this as they have done the Con Circut alot and have the Experience under thier belts.

[Helvetian]

Becca the issue I most fear is again the lack of attention RPG's got at Dreamation. I have some Ideas that might cure that issue. It's an old problem that I find at I-CON as well. People love to stop by and play a 15 -20 minute card game, but if they have to stay for an hour or two... heavens forbid. As RPG designers we have to come up with a way for players to emmerse themselves in a story or game for a small amout of time, but walk away feeling that they actually took away the flavor of the RPG.

We should find a time to discuss those ideas. :)  I have a few as well.  I'd really like to see the RPGs get more walk-by attention.  I'll get hold of you, so we can find a time to chat.  And I'd definitely be interested in hearing what other RPG publishers and demo'ers do, to get the walk-bys to stop and look.

Becca

[JamesSterrett]

I was Ken's [AdAstraGames'] Filleted Demo Minion at Dreamation - and, yes, he's accurately reporting my commentary on the Dreamation team: they did a great job.

Dregg:  Regarding I-Con, you did a good sales pitch for doing demos, but that is undermined by the booklet on I-Con showing very little about games.  PM me or email me and we can discuss this.  (Note that my schedule is very fluid at the moment, which makes scheduling myself into cons difficult.  :(  )   And *do* post at the www.adastragames.com forums, to see if there's a demo minion closer to SUNY Stony Brook who can come.  [Irony: a close friend of mine moved *away* from there last year!]

On running demos:  

Figure out several demos, or a demo with several breakpoints.  For example, the way I run the AV:T demos, there are a couple of built-in breakpoints and branches.

The *short* demo is not interactive at all; I show off a few components and waft once-over-lightly past the 3D mechanics.

That's also essentially the intro to the longer demos, which introduce progressively more mechanics, hopefully with the players becoming more involved as the demo progresses, and there are breakpoints for players to control where the demo goes, etc.

Can you adapt this to Bad Muthas?  Can you to put together a *really quick* game that lets you walk people through the Really Cool parts [with their hands firmly held - but they need not know that], and which - for those who are hooked - lets them go for an extended test drive [in which you let them start walking on their own]?

A *possible* way to do this:

Start with the Life character generation system.  Don't actually play through it - just ask the demo-player what vague kind of character they might start with.  Cook it down to three options.  Then elide past the chargen system with "Well, what with one thing and another, you might wind up with this character" and hand them one of three characters.  Set a scene, and let them play through it - but it's a quick scene, running only 4 or 5 minutes real time.  Have enough character sheets to let a small group join if they all come at once.

Maybe they only play for 5 minutes.  Smile and send them off when they get bored.  Or, better, they get caught up in the game.  You're *still* going to end that scenario after around 25-30 minutes.  After that - or earlier, if they seem so inclined - you get them to set up their own characters.  Let them play at the demo table [suddenly, no more troubles with the Lonely Loser syndrome!] while you help them figure things out but keep yourself free to do demos for new players.  If it fits the Bad Muthas setting, having a canned scenario for such players would be a good idea.

In the best case, if you have 3-4 people playing the game for several hours, what's the probability they won't have bought it?  :)

[E.T.Smith]

It may be less than charitable to make this the subject of my first post, but I have a minor snit to field:

I was in attendance at last years Dreamation, and was looking forward to the next one. Not hearing any mention of it, I assumed it had tanked. So now I see that there *was* another one and, somehow, I was not informed. I know that though I by no means qualify as a major prescence, I was in the organizers' files somewhere, as I ran a couple games for them (Fudge and Talislanta, if you're wondering). I would have expected an e-mail announcement at least.

The theoritical talk about getting attendees to play your games is good, but it is of little value if poor effort has been put into getting attendees in the first place. Again and again the most significant failing I see at conventions (even the one I used to help run) is an inability to contact the base that would be interested in participating on a general level. These are not trade shows after all, but mass entertainment events and should be promoted as such.


Later;
E.T.Smith