Heroism

[Edge]

i wouldn't refer to a fireman or a soldier as a hero unless by their actions they did something we come to refer to as heroic.  Having been in the military there is absolutely nothing heroic to it but i have known guys who are exceptions to this and have done some very 'heroic' things, primarily puting their own safety and lives aside to help out and save others.

[Bob Richter]

That's a good point Bob Richter.  Do you think the man on the street would deny that Superman is also a hero?

Well, yes.

The man on the street knows that superman is an imaginary character, and you should too. :)

All kidding aside, Superman isn't a hero because he's faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive or able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. These are merely abilities he has that let him do more.

Incidentally, they also let him choose to sacrifice more -- which he does. Here is a man who will never have a normal social life. If anyone ever gets too close to Clark Kent, they'll notice he's not really there.

[Drifter Bob]

I see where you are coming from better now.  Thanks for clarifying.  

Thank you for taking the time to try to understand my point, in spite of my murky analogies.  I think at this juncture we simply believe different things about the world.

why do definitions of heroism that are 1000 and 4000 years old respectively pre-empt the modern interpretation?  Comic book superheroism is now the order of the day, and quite valid.  Having a much larger circulation, I'd wager that it's a much more prominent definition of

I believe that people are latching on to the comic book because it is the closest thing that they can generally find to what they are looking for.  Seamus Heaneys translation of Beowulf isn't as widely avaialble in every drug store (or in modern terms, in every Wal-mart) the way comics are.  And yet, quality does bear out.  Look how many times Shakespeare plays have been successfully rehashed in Hollywood.

My point is in both comics and in Dungeons and Dragons people are accepting a watered down, mass market product which is engineered to sell copies, to fulfill a spiritual need they have for great legends, much as they may watch stale episodes of Gilligans Island for a cheap, stale laugh when a real conversation with a funny person isn't avaialble as an alternative.

How does playing D&D casually equate with spending one's life in tepid mediocrity?  

I don't believe it does.  D&D can be done well, or it can be done in a mastubatory, stale mediocre manner.  My point is that it is usually done the latter way.

I'll also call a spade a spade and say that this is just a game.  It's not a lifestyle.  A person's choice of game does not send them into a precipice of squalid grey spiritual-middle-management land.  It's just a game.  

Again, you seem to be reading a bigger social agenda into my comments about gamers.  I simply think it is a fact that there is a culture of RPG enthusiasts which embraces the stale and mediocre, just as there is in many aspects of modern life.  That is just the way it looks to me.

Even so, why is it beneficial for heroism to be somehow divorced from pop culture/the unwashed masses, where the vibrant center of life and culture actually is, and shuttled off into an obscure, cobweb infested corner of literary scholasticism?

Well, we have different experiences of the world my friend.  I don't believe that most of current pop culture, TV, standard Hollywood movies, Pro Wrestling, etc. etc., is the vibrant center of life and culture.  When it was less centrally controlled, some culture and vitality did leak into it, but that is mostly gone now.  That is the real reason why record sales and TV viewership is down, (and not because of Kazaa) the product is increasingly diluted.

Have you been to a tractor pull or a Pro wrestling match?  Have you been to a big hip hop concert lately?  It's very, very stale.  Ersatz joy.

And I don't think the alternative is dusty or cobweb infested.  History and real heroes still resonate.  I think that is why even dimly HIstorically based flicks like Braveheart and Gladiator hit such a chord.  I think that is why the Lord of the Rings is doing so well, because it is the closest thing to a real heroic mythology most people in this "pop culture" have access to today.  Tolkein was a professional linguist, and in fashioning his stories he was directly mining norse and celtic mythology, the mythology of the ancestors of most Americans and Europeans.

I believe that heroes are as people define them.  Like pornography - people know it when they see it.  If I find that my view of heroism is superior to but at odds with millions of Americans, is this saying more about me or about millions of Americans?  I'd actually say both at the same time.  

Maybe I'm a snob.  I won't deny it.

As far as your food analogy goes, I subscribe to Cook's
(snip)
and baking.  I also like eating at nice restaurants here in Seattle.  On the other hand I think that, to be honest, McDonalds food tastes pretty good.  

Well, maybe this is because I'm from New Orleans, and I'm definately a food snob, but I think the whole idea that McDonalds etc. is good food, is a myth.  Yeah, it's better than whats at the gas station.  The french fries are pretty tasty when you are starving, but have you ever had real creole sauteed potatoes?  I'm sorry, a Big Mac just doesn't hold a candle to a good steak, or even a traditional Po-Boy or a Muffalata Sandwich.  A real hamburger at Maspero's.  Similarly, filet-o-fish can't hold up to a stuffed red snapper from Adolfo's, etc.

And no, it's not really cheaper.  Faster, yes.  

If you are ever in town we can conduct a taste test some time.

I know to avoid it thanks to Fast Food Nation as well as general

My girlfriend has this book, it seemed to horrify her.

pricing issue).  If someone doesn't like Gallatoires, I too think it's good to know what their tastes are (McDonalds, for example) to establish context,

This was my original point, because I believe this discussion of heroism stems from the negative review about TROS.  My point was that the reviewer was complaining based on a seriously skewed geeked out point of view.

....but I'm not going to deride their opinion and call them epicureally bankrupt.  
(snip)
I do find that when trying to discuss things analogies generally tend to make things less clear than more clear and spin discussions off onto strange tangents like this one, if you see what I'm driving at.

Frankly, I do.  I know most people would say it's subjective, but I think watching Fawlty Towers is BETTER than watching Friends.  Like I said, maybe I'm a snob.  But it seems quite concrete to me, and this perceptual relativism that we buy into in this country is, IMHO, bullshit.

If I had to define heroism, it would be a bit simpler.  It's someone who does grand things and that you agree with.  Someone who does grand things that you don't agree with is an anti-hero or a villain.  False humility and P.C. moralism do not disqualify someone from heroism, as long as their deeds still match up.  I think that hacking through an army of enemies, wading in their gore in the lust of battle, does potentially sound pretty heroic though, and D&D is a good game for enabling that kind of scenario.  TROS less so.

In spite of my comment above, I will grant you this, different groups of people will define their own heroes.  I just think under the current social dynamic, people aren't really able to do that.  So they are embracing stale imitations like flotation buys in a cultural shipwreck.

jR

[Drifter Bob]

i wouldn't refer to a fireman or a soldier as a hero unless by their actions they did something we come to refer to as heroic.  Having been in the military there is absolutely nothing heroic to it but i have known guys who are exceptions to this and have done some very 'heroic' things, primarily puting their own safety and lives aside to help out and save others.

I did a tour in the US army as a medic, and I agree with the above 100%.  In the current political climate we are unrealistically fetishising people with certain jobs.  I reccomend a film called "buffalo soldiers" which just came out on VHS and DVD, to get a good idea of what our modern armed  forces are really like.

JR

[Ingenious]

For anything else relating to heroism.. look at the life of Audie Murphy.

-Ingenious

[Bastoche]

My point is in both comics and in Dungeons and Dragons people are accepting a watered down, mass market product which is engineered to sell copies, to fulfill a spiritual need they have for great legends, much as they may watch stale episodes of Gilligans Island for a cheap, stale laugh when a real conversation with a funny person isn't avaialble as an alternative.

How does playing D&D casually equate with spending one's life in tepid mediocrity?  

I don't believe it does.  D&D can be done well, or it can be done in a mastubatory, stale mediocre manner.  My point is that it is usually done the latter way.

What does this have to do with different concept of heroism? Not much. The point is that being a "hero" is not a measure of the character's superpowers. And we all agree on this. Except for those who thinks powerful characters à la DnD can't be heroes because they are powerful. That's not the point. The point is that to be a hero, you have to do great things at great sacrifice. Who you are doesn't matter.

(huge snip of off topic things)

In spite of my comment above, I will grant you this, different groups of people will define their own heroes.  I just think under the current social dynamic, people aren't really able to do that.  So they are embracing stale imitations like flotation buys in a cultural shipwreck.
jR

Who cares? If they enjoy it that's all that matters. "Ability" to define what a hero is doesn't make any sense due to the subjective nature of the definition.

[kenjib]

Thanks for your well argued response Drifter Bob.  I think we both have some good points and I've enjoyed the discussion.  :)

[Drifter Bob]

Thanks for your well argued response Drifter Bob.  I think we both have some good points and I've enjoyed the discussion.  :)

I agree, you sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.  A veritible "hero" of cyberspace.  Just kidding!

JR