How to introduce new players to HeroQuest?

[Bankuei]

Hi Mike,

Agreed in full.

Chris

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi,

First, I think that it's pretty obvious that the HQ text is only so narrativist. As you point out, Chris, the scenarios aren't at all narrativist. And people play it other than narrativist. You may think that narrativist is the only way to play the game, but in the end that's just propaganda. If you'd said, "I think it's the best way to play," or something, then I wouldn't object. But the implication that it doesn't support other methods of play is only believed here at The Forge, by only a few people. I'm not one of them.

Oh, man. I agree that the HeroQuest text isn't particularly narrativist. It isn't particularly simulationist either. In this regard, the game's presentation of itself is rather contradictory. However, it is quite clear that HeroQuest supports narrativist play very well. Does it support sim play? If you say so. I have nothing to say about simulationism, just as I have nothing to say about bridge. I play poker.

Punchline: When I want advice on how to play poker, I can go to a public library or a book shop or amazon.com and find tons and tons and tons of relevant books. Or I can go to a casino, or a poker club, or talk to poker players on the internet about it. If I want advice on narrativist roleplaying the library is useless, and so is my gaming store. If amazon.com has anything relevant, I don't know how to find it. Not even talking to people at local gaming clubs or conventions is likely to help: "Players having their characters making moral decisions thus creating a theme through play? Have you tried Vampire?"

No, Mike, this is the place. This is where I can find other people interested in playing narrativist games. A sim player or a gamist have many more options, but those of us interested in narrativist play would have been pretty much on our own if it hadn't been for The Forge. If we are not allowed to jump up and down, waiving our hands and shouting "hey, did you know that HeroQuest plays very well in a narrativist fashion, let me show you how" there is no way we would be able to locate each other. Propaganda? Goddamit Mike!

Yes, my game is probably somewhat narrativist, but that doesn't mean I would tell anyone else playing otherwise that they were doing it wrong. Especially when it seems that they're having fun doing it.

Who said otherwise? No, really Mike, who are you accusing of telling anyone else playing otherwise that they are doing it wrong; especially when it seems that they're having fun doing it? Name names and show me the evidence!

Don't anybody use the term Railroading, please I beg you, without defining it first. Per usual it's being used here to mean "GM control where I don't like it". Which is too personal to mean anything to anyone else.

From Ron's nar essay: "Control of a player-character's decisions by the GM, or opportunities for decisions, in any way which breaks the Social Contract for that group, in the eyes of the character's player." However, it appears as if Chris may be talking about Force rather than railroading. Force is defined in the essay as "Control over the protagonist characters' thematically-significant decisions by anyone who is not the character's player." If we stick to these definitions, railroading is always bad. Force, on the other hand, may be perfectly acceptable in many instances, but never ever in narrativist play. Hm ... in fact, in nar play Force is railroading, I think.

As for the rest of Mike's post: I agree. The advice to Caynreth is especially useful.

Best,

/Peter N

[Mike Holmes]

If we are not allowed to jump up and down, waiving our hands and shouting "hey, did you know that HeroQuest plays very well in a narrativist fashion, let me show you how" there is no way we would be able to locate each other. Propaganda? Goddamit Mike!

Read again. That's exactly what I propose one should say. All I'm against is people stating that 'the one way' to play HQ is using Narrativist technique. I'd even accept it as obvious propaganda: "People think you can play HQ in a Sim fashion, but we don't think it works well that way." But it's just disingenuous to say, HQ is narrativist, and you have to learn these thechniques to do it right. Which is very much how Chris has sounded at times lately. This is making converts through disinformation (or at least a sin of ommision), which is not the way to go about it, as I think you alienate as many people as you might attract with that tactic.

Yes, my game is probably somewhat narrativist, but that doesn't mean I would tell anyone else playing otherwise that they were doing it wrong. Especially when it seems that they're having fun doing it.

Who said otherwise? No, really Mike, who are you accusing of telling anyone else playing otherwise that they are doing it wrong; especially when it seems that they're having fun doing it? Name names and show me the evidence!

Finally, HeroQuest supports a style of play called Narrativism,

Chris in his first response indicates that if he guy isn't playing narrativist, it's not going to work. That this is one of three things that Caynreth needs to do to make his leap to HQ work. Implying that other modes of play are doomed to failure with HQ. When people post the opposite information every day*.

As a suggestion that it might help, I'm all for it, with you all the way.

Hm ... in fact, in nar play Force is railroading, I think.

Yes, this is a good clarification. As long as you have solid definitions, it's possible to make sense of these issues.

Mike

* What I really think happens is that HQ does a good job of supporting a mode where N or S is strongly supporting the other. The question of where players of the game fall is mostly in which they prioritize just a little over the other. That is, there's a spectrum, but the greatest density of players is near the middle. Note my adherence to canon, and my use of simulation aspects of the system as my own nod to Simulationism.

[Bankuei]

Hi Mike,

Please do reread my first post again.  I do mention at the end that you can run HQ in a Sim fashion, only that if you do so, there isn't much to "introduce" that will be very different than accustomed play in many of the other games Caynreth mentions.  

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

True enough. I think that I could argue that it seems somewhat dismissive as an option - almost a footnote. But that would be splitting hairs on my part. In any case, I was mostly railing against what I saw as a trend herebouts. I've made my point, and will be moseying along.

Mike

[Bankuei]

Hi Mike,

No worries.  I'll try to be more inclusive in more of my posts.  Being pro Nar doesn't mean being anti Sim :P

Chris