Gloranthan Genre conventions / tropes

[contracycle]

Hmm, its a bit more than that, because some of the buzzwords are functionally reversed to their conventional meaning.  As in the above, the use of the term 'atheism' is almost diamterically opposite to the meaning of the same term in the real world.  The non-explicit usage of such specialist terminology  - in fact, even realising that these terms are not used in an intuitive manner - is very seldom explicit if at all.

--

RaconteuryX asked why I would think that there is no underlying Gloranthan metaphysics... but this is due to things like recent statements that the metaphysics of Glorantha are ineffable, and so not subjects for exploration.

R. also says, on the GL's, that I should not expect long definitve answers from Greg.  Well, why not?  Obviously I don't expect a personal dialogue, but I DO expect that somewhere along the line a definitive statement will have to be given.  Else, my central complaint is verified, that some of the most important elements of the world are actively withheld from the purchasers of the game.  

The only reason I mentioned the GL's in the first place is because even the newb runs into them pretty early, and they point to or allude to some fundamental precepts of the nature of Glorantha.  And yet, that exploration can never get off the ground becuase the requisite information is not available and frankly never seems likely to be available.

I would like to ask the gloranthafiles of long standing: do any of you actually know the secret of the god-learners?

I ask this becuase a speculation hads already been offered, and it takes places almost entirely outside of glorantha, appealing to munchkins and PC's etc.  I can't eve parse the sentence that they are munchkins paradise; how and why?  And if so, who cares?.. settings can easily have powers within them that will never be made available to PC's.  

So, does anyone actually know, or is everyone just speculating?  What I'm getting at is, Brand points out that there is a lot of material to learn, but in this case I'm not sure that there is anything to learn.  This is the nub of the matter: whether definitive answers can EVER be expected from Greg.

[Donald]

R. also says, on the GL's, that I should not expect long definitve answers from Greg.  Well, why not?  Obviously I don't expect a personal dialogue, but I DO expect that somewhere along the line a definitive statement will have to be given.  Else, my central complaint is verified, that some of the most important elements of the world are actively withheld from the purchasers of the game.

Withheld is IMO very unfair to Greg, he does not know everything about Glorantha and some of what he knows he can't explain. I know this sounds strange but if you ever meet him you'll understand what I mean (or get terribly frustrated with him). There is also the fact that he doesn't consider the God Learner secret as important to the game so he doesn't see any reason to define what he considers will restrict rather than enhance .

I would like to ask the gloranthafiles of long standing: do any of you actually know the secret of the god-learners?

I ask this becuase a speculation hads already been offered, and it takes places almost entirely outside of glorantha, appealing to munchkins and PC's etc.  I can't eve parse the sentence that they are munchkins paradise; how and why?  And if so, who cares?.. settings can easily have powers within them that will never be made available to PC's.  
So, does anyone actually know, or is everyone just speculating?  What I'm getting at is, Brand points out that there is a lot of material to learn, but in this case I'm not sure that there is anything to learn.  This is the nub of the matter: whether definitive answers can EVER be expected from Greg.

There is a rumour that Sandy Peterson knows but having heard him talk about his campaign I wouldn't rely on that as canon for Glorantha. Entertaining certainly but it varies a bit much from my Glorantha. Basically whatever the God Learners secret in Greg's Glorantha is he will not make it canon so it's up to you what you make it in your Glorantha. The only guidance you get is that it endangers the gods and probably involves the GL attempt to classify and standardise the gods.

[soru]

Else, my central complaint is verified, that some of the most important elements of the world are actively withheld from the purchasers of the game.

I have no idea what the metaphysics of the real world are, but I have no difficulty running historical games.

Guess its just one of those things you have to put down as a matter of taste.

soru

[RaconteurX]

As Donald said, Greg does not know everything there is to know about Glorantha. On several occasions I have asked Greg specific questions regarding Glorantha to which his answer was "I don't know"... which he always followed up with "Why don't you make up something neat?" Greg has actively encouraged people to fill in the blanks with their own material for as long as Glorantha has been in publication, as evinced by the "Blank Lands" which he was committed to not developing. Much of the current canon began as fan-created material which Greg thought was too cool to not be Gloranthan "truth".

Frankly, I have never understood this entire "cannot make up my own stuff for fear of being wrong" mentality. Prior to Thunder Rebels, none of the published sources told us anything of substance about the Orlanthi way of life. Most of us still managed to have tremendously fun RuneQuest campaigns nonetheless. I know people who based their Orlanthi on Hellenic models rather than Celto-Germanic ones, incorrect as we now know that to be canonically, but they had fun with their games. I suppose my viewpoint is an artifact of the early days of roleplaying, when very little was not just created entirely by individual gamemasters.

In short, Greg is not withholding anything. He just has not discovered all of Glorantha yet. Tekumel fans will notice the same thing with respect to M.A.R. Barker and his creation. Chances are this applies to the creators of every other expansive game setting as well; I have only spoken with the two I mentioned, but I am fairly certain this is the case.

[Nick Brooke]

I would like to ask the gloranthafiles of long standing: do any of you actually know the secret of the god-learners?

There is a rumour that Sandy Petersen knows...

He does, from when he worked at Chaosium back in the eighties. Whether it's changed since then is another question altogether :-)

Cheers, Nick

[simon_hibbs]

Hmm, its a bit more than that, because some of the buzzwords are functionally reversed to their conventional meaning.  As in the above, the use of the term 'atheism' is almost diamterically opposite to the meaning of the same term in the real world.  The non-explicit usage of such specialist terminology  - in fact, even realising that these terms are not used in an intuitive manner - is very seldom explicit if at all.

Atheism is a tricky one, as it's been used to mean an awful lot of different things in the real world. Many people accused, even executed for atheism in the past did believe in a creator, just a different one (or of a different nature) to the poeple doing the accusing. Moslems were often considered atheists because they were against the christian notion of god - "Their conception of god is false, therefore they do not believe in the existence of the true god, therefore they are atheists".

I believe I used the term in it's strict sense though. The Brithini do not believe in a creator god, only the immutable and impersonal laws of the cosmos.

RaconteuryX asked why I would think that there is no underlying Gloranthan metaphysics... but this is due to things like recent statements that the metaphysics of Glorantha are ineffable, and so not subjects for exploration.

Ineffable doesn't mean non-existent.

R. also says, on the GL's, that I should not expect long definitve answers from Greg.  Well, why not?  Obviously I don't expect a personal dialogue, but I DO expect that somewhere along the line a definitive statement will have to be given.  Else, my central complaint is verified, that some of the most important elements of the world are actively withheld from the purchasers of the game.

I still don't see why an ancient secret, unknown to anyone in Glorantha and also no-longer even true, is such a big deal. And no, I have absolutely no idea what the Secret of the God Learners migh be.

This is the nub of the matter: whether definitive answers can EVER be expected from Greg.

The following is my understanding - I can't actualy speak for Greg, obviously.

Since (IMHO) Greg believes the basic metaphysics of Glorantha are largely (but not exactly) the same as those of our world (he's a practicing shaman remember), he has the same problems explaining them as he would to a student of religious philosophy in our world. He does believe there are deep religious truths, but these can't be understood purely in an intellectual sense, you have to experience them to understand them, so your request for just the facts simply can't be answered in as streight and matter of fact a way as you would like.


Simon Hibbs

[contracycle]

Since (IMHO) Greg believes the basic metaphysics of Glorantha are largely (but not exactly) the same as those of our world (he's a practicing shaman remember), he has the same problems explaining them as he would to a student of religious philosophy in our world. He does believe there are deep religious truths, but these can't be understood purely in an intellectual sense, you have to experience them to understand them, so your request for just the facts simply can't be answered in as streight and matter of fact a way as you would like.

Umm, fine, all I'm asking for is an attempt in the first place.  Remember, I don't have to find it personally convincing or revelatory, I only want to understand it well enough to play a fictional character.  That does not seem to be too much for me top ask from a ROLE playing game, that is is, a discussion of how to play the role.

It seems to me that Glorantha compels me to adopt Pawn stance for my character universally, as I cannot understand the characters personal experience and neither the game rules nor text explicate this experience satisfactorily.  As a result it comes across as morally and ethically empty.

[Mac Logo]

It seems to me that Glorantha compels me to adopt Pawn stance for my character universally, as I cannot understand the characters personal experience and neither the game rules nor text explicate this experience satisfactorily.  As a result it comes across as morally and ethically empty.

Umm, what do absolutist metaphysics have to do you character's personal experience?

The rules start you off in a limited way with Homelands and a choice of deities. HeroQuest Voices gives those Homelands (and a few others) a more familial viewpoint.

That is your character's experience of life. Layers of detail can be added with the mountain of free stuff available online in various places, and of  course the excellent supplements produced by Issaries and their many collaborators.

That's more than enough for me to start playing.

I don't understand why a Gloranthan needs to know the absolutely, ineffably correct version of the cosmology. After all, they've all grown up with their culture and know that their version is right.

The Gloranthan heroes that we create in our play are stepping outside that straitjacket into a confusing and conflicting world. They have to pick a truth or make one. Picking a truth may put you into pawn stance - but not necessarily so - however making a truth is pure author stance.
Neither of those is morally or ethically empty - they are about making a choice. In Glorantha, we may start out as pawns, but heroquesting is the equivalent of racing across the board, with all the attending dangers and making Queen.

As for the God Learners, they are a trivial problem. Bunch of sorcerors who got too uppity and kicked down the doors of the cosmos. Unfortunately the cosmos was in at the time and initiated an "armed response". Now they are the convenient equivalent of the Knights Templar for conspiracy theorists in Glorantha.
:)

Go on, ask about the EWF.
:D

Cheers

Graeme

[simon_hibbs]

It seems to me that Glorantha compels me to adopt Pawn stance for my character universally, as I cannot understand the characters personal experience and neither the game rules nor text explicate this experience satisfactorily.  As a result it comes across as morally and ethically empty.

I suppose I just can't see why things that your character doesn't (and generaly can't) know, have so much to do with the character's personal experience.

I think the game generaly does an excelent job of explaining what the characters in the game know about their religion, their culture, and their friends and enemies. I'd have thought these were the most important things in understanding the character's personal experience.


Simon Hibbs

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Gareth,

I kind of empthasize with your point of view (I think!).  You seem to be saying, "If I don't understand the underpinning metaphysics, how can I really choose how my guy fits into the underlying metaphysics.  Without that context, the gaming experience will be morally and ethically empty."

However, others suggest, "We'll, you've got enough to go on for *your* guy, so enjoy that."

And that doesn't really answer your concerns, as far as I can tell.

I will suggest a third, middle way.  I suggest it only because it is of interest to me: Not knowing the metaphysical contexts while living in a metaphysically driven game is exactly what I would want because that's the tension of a religious premise I would want.  That is, yes, the PCs (and the player) are caught up in something larger than life (literally, larger than the mundane), and the definition of what that means is something each mortal PC (and each player of each PC) has to sort throug on their own.

This is exactly the kind of tension missing from most RPG religions: the idea that it isn't all set out in stone for the PCs to manipulate it at will, or there's the big Number 42 out there for the PCs to find the Question to.  

In Glorantha, the "meaning" of the universe, how it really "works" always remains a mystery.  I think that's a good thing.  If only because, well, for those of us poor schmucks on earth with faith, that's the way it goes. It's never completely clear.  

Thus the tension between "Your guys knows these things," and "There's an underlying reason for everything *out there* but you'll never really know it (no, not even the players)" for my money is a vital Premise of a truly mythological and/or religious game.  

How do you live in a mundane world when the world is imbued with the supernatural -- a supernatural you can tap/experience/partake of, but, because you are mortal, never fully know, never fully understand.

The fact that the players will be doing their part to taffy pull the "true" nature (and notice that nature is the wrong word, but what word is there?) of Glorantha in terms of its "meaning" is precisely what Glorantha is about, what it is desgined to do.

What are the moral and ethical parametes of Glorantha?  Ultimately, no one knows!  That's the horrible magic trick.  That's why the PCs (and the players) are screwed against the wall on this.  And that's why I find it a compelling setting.  I think it also points to compelling directions to drive religious elements in other settings.  If you do Le Morte D'Arthur and God's love, God's views on violence and more are still up for grabs in terms of "How do you act right?" and the PCs have to pick their way through choices with limited information while striving to be "faithful -- well, that's the pain of faith.  But if you're faithful, you keep picking your way through the options anyway.

In other words, for me its the lack of a known underlying metaphysics that makes such a setting so absolutely morally and ethically compelling.

Christopher

[RaconteurX]

Contra:

By your definition, all roleplaying games must perforce be "morally and ethically empty" as none manage to adequately explain the metaphysics of their respective settings sufficiently to comprehend what a character's religious experience might be without resorting to real-world analogy. Have you read Thunder Rebels? How does that fail to convey the experience of theistic, specifically Orlanthi, religion? What part of the overall "look at how people worship in the real world and apply what you learn to the setting" advice do you not get? For such a prolific poster, you sure come across as ignorant. More and more it just seems that all you want is to troll on this forum, or whine about how HeroQuest stifles your creativity. Grow up.

[Christopher Kubasik]

Whoa Michael,

I've been reading Gareth's posts a long time.  He may be relentless, but I've never known him to be anything but sincere in his questions.  He's always struck me as a man working from specific, if even stringent, convictions, and always respecting the challenge of working from those convictions.

In other words, for Gareth, (and more and more for me, in fact), it's never just about being "a game."  He wants to work and undestand his game play from the point of view of what he values, what matters, and his principles.

This might be a rough ride on occassion, because everybody's values and principles don't always line up.  Thus, it seems like someone's being obtuse -- but only because we're all approaching things from sometimes compeltely different values and principles.  The fact that Gareth is fierce in his principles doesn't make him obtuse.  It just means he's willing to go to bat and chew on something until he can reconcile his view with the new material at hand, reject the new material, or change his views.

But he's sincere.  That's the main point.  That's been my experience.

Christopher

[Brand_Robins]

Thus the tension between "Your guys knows these things," and "There's an underlying reason for everything *out there* but you'll never really know it (no, not even the players)" for my money is a vital Premise of a truly mythological and/or religious game.

Thanks Christopher, that really made something snap into place in my own mind. I think this should certainly be one of the Gloranthan tropes -- part of Myth, perhaps, but maybe a thing of its own. The lack of certainty on any level, while madening for many, is certainly part of the glory of the setting for others. Either way you slice it, I think the uncertainty of meaning is part of the Gloranthan genre. It's more than ambiguous references, it's an underlying ambiguity to the whole setting that reflects the lack of certainty we often have when dealing with reality.

[Nick Brooke]

I think the uncertainty of meaning is part of the Gloranthan genre. It's more than ambiguous references, it's an underlying ambiguity to the whole setting that reflects the lack of certainty we often have when dealing with reality.

Gotta agree. Here's an old article of mine about it: Whatever Happened to the One True Glorantha?

Cheers, Nick

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Brand,

I actually think it's a kluge of points 1. and 5. from the list you posted on the first page of this thread.  (1. Myth Defines and 5. Ambiguous References).  

However, I think it's a slippery and *very* unique point for HeroQuest.  Whether the group simply smiles and says, "Well, we just don't know!" or digs in deep to the issue as fascinating Premise, Glorantha doesn't have the huge Reality Generator burried deep in the depth of the story that's going to explain everything.  (Well, except this: The World is Myth.)

For this reason, I'd offer up this as Trope 6 -- but I have no idea how to phrase it.

Christopher