Bastard sword and shield

[Pytorb]

If my character has their bastard sword in one hand and their shield in the other which dice pool (Ref + greatsword or sword&shiled) do they use when attacking or defending with the sword and which dice pool (Ref + sword&shield or greatsword) do they use for defending or attacking with the shield?

[Brian Leybourne]

Pytorb,

Your Combat Pool is derived from the style of fighting you're using, not really the specific weapons in your hands. If you're righting with a bastard sword and a shield, then use the Sword&Shield style to determine your CP, and keep it for the entire fight unless you somehow lose the shield and start using the sword differently.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

Man, Brian's like, always right...

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

I know, it's eery ;-)

Brian.

[Pytorb]

Thanks guys I guess I'm just thinking too much along my old WFRP days when that combo was my favourite and not enough on the actual style of how you would fight with that combo.  I think my shield will be staying on my horse for use in purely defensive situations from now on.

[Valamir]

I was turning over the utility of a shield in TROS in my mind the other day.  From all of the discussions on reality it seems a shield is a highly effective thing to have in a battle.

However, mechanically, it doesn't seem all that worth while.

Consider.  The DTN of a typical sword is 6.  The DTN of a shield is 5.  That means when rolling 10 dice in defense, a shield block should get 1 more success than a weapon parry.  Ok...except that all shields above a buckler give a CP penalty, the larger ones -2 or more.  Well, 10 dice vs TN 6 gives 5 successes.  8 dice (10 -2 die penalty) vs. TN 5 gives 4.8.  This is worse than simply using a sword to parry.

Sure the shield gives defensive armor, but alls the attacker has to do is attack an area not protected by the shield (which the attacker is 100% free to do without restriction of any kind...save for counters) and this bonus become moot.

Are the stats for shields really off, or is there some other facet I'm missing.  Sure, the shield has the benefit of being immune to binds, but is this really that effective.

Seems to me that a shield should have a TN of 4.  Or maybe even TN 3 from a Defensive Stance.

What have others found about the effectiveness of shields in combat?

[Bob Richter]

A fine shield is actually pretty cheap, and can have reduced DTN or CP penalty, or both. It can be used in the block & strike manuever. It can be used to block arrows or parry strikes for a more offensively oriented sword (frex: fine shortsword with reduced thrust ATN.)

In general, it doesn't seem the shield has quite the utility I recall from sparring against one (albeit a wooden mockup with a boffer...)

I don't know how I'd go about fixing that.

[Bob Richter]

I used Bastard Sword and shield once.

I was playing a dwarf and was therefore swinging at people's legs with my handaxe, when it got stuck in a gol's hip.

undaunted, I picked up his sword and finished the fight at a -1cp(?) penalty.

[Ingenious]

Val, regarding the passive armor rules for shields...
I had a conversation with a certain person about this very rule after discovering and not using the rule correctly.. resulting in the 'death' that my character should have gone through.. and this person said new rules for shields might be had in TFOB.

..But I can neither confirm nor deny that. :-D

Anyways it does makes sense to me that a shield can absorb the impact of a weapon.. and that a shield can be mobile in relation to shield frontage on a character.
A shield is able to be moved in order to do a block-open/strike correct?
then why the hell can I not move it to my groin and to soak some damage from an attack?
-Ingenious

[Mokkurkalfe]

then why the hell can I not move it to my groin and to soak some damage from an attack?
-Ingenious

You can. It's called a Block maneuver.
Oh okay, I know what you're really after. What if the passive defence are grows in defensive stance? So if you are defensive, a heater shield will cover your groin and perhaps even your thighs.

[Brian Leybourne]

I had a conversation with a certain person about this very rule after discovering and not using the rule correctly.. resulting in the 'death' that my character should have gone through.. and this person said new rules for shields might be had in TFOB.

..But I can neither confirm nor deny that. :-D

Heh, that's funny.

But yeah, there's a bit of an overhaul of shields and armor in TFOB. I think it should ease your concerns.

Brian.

[Muggins]

Strictly speaking, a bastard sword would never be used with a shield. The swords are designed to be wielded one-handed from a horse, or twohanded while dismounted. The grip and pommel get in the way of good sword and shield work.

James

[Lance D. Allen]

Ralph,

A house rule that makes sense to me that might alleviate some of your issue..

If you block with the shield, and garner any successes, but fail to beat the attacker's roll, add the shield's armor value to the location being defended.

Hence if someone strikes upward at the groin, and I drop the shield to defend, getting 3 successes to the attacker's 5, then the AV of the shield is now considered when touting up damage.

Not perfect, but it definitely adds functionality.

[Valamir]

That's an interesting rule Lance.  It makes a good bit of sense.

One could argue that the attacker losing 3 successes on his attack comes not from striking the shield but from having to alter his attack to avoid the shield (in fact, that's probably the best description of it)

But it would mean that a) the shields armor value actually matters and gets used, unlike now when it never gets used except when you forget and attack the wrong area, and b) its really simple and intuitive to implement, so even if it isn't completely realistic it would involve little additional complication.

Have you tried the rule?  My concern now would be that it might make shields TOO effective.  With a single success on a defense roll you are adding a heck of alot of armor protection.  Concievably with a TN of 5 one could defend every attack with only 2-3 dice, relying on the armor of the shield plus regular armor to stop any blow cold...

[Mokkurkalfe]

Ralph,

A house rule that makes sense to me that might alleviate some of your issue..

If you block with the shield, and garner any successes, but fail to beat the attacker's roll, add the shield's armor value to the location being defended.

Hence if someone strikes upward at the groin, and I drop the shield to defend, getting 3 successes to the attacker's 5, then the AV of the shield is now considered when touting up damage.

Not perfect, but it definitely adds functionality.

Whew! That would make a shield *extremely* useful. Assuming a heater shield, one success at TN 5 and you have an AV of +8!
Of course, I don't know if a shield is that good or not IRL, but that's another issue.