Lulu and me

[Christopher Weeks]

I hope this is recent enough that my response is kosher.  I read Clinton's note, investigated Lulu to the extent that I could on the web, followed this thread, and as a direct result, ordered Donjon.  They shipped it four days after my order and I got it two days later.  I can't complain.

Ok, so four days printing + two days shipping later, I get a book in the mail. The printing is very nice: the interior's better than standard printer paper, the text is clear and black, and the covers are well done, if the tiniest bit flimsy.

I think the covers suck eggs.  The printing is nice (and it looks like a nice game, though I've only just started the read), but I'd have to call it more than "the tiniest bit flimsy."  The Donjon covers are so thin that crap-ass cardstock from Kinko's would be better.  I'm considering retrofitting the book with thicker covers, but then I should have just printed it myself.

I consider the cover a deal breaker.  Because 100# white bond paper appears to be the only option for covers, I would not use them for publishing my stuff.  I do wonder if maybe it would be OK in a perfect-bound product.  Does anyone know if that would add rigidity?

I figured it would be worth adding my opinion after having used them once.

Chris

[Christopher Weeks]

I think the covers suck eggs.

Sorry to be responding to myself, but I've put in some time with this book now and I want to revise my stance.  The thin covers and spiral binding are actually quite conducive to the kind of reading that I'm giving the book -- in bed at night and in the hot tub in the morning.  It's light, flexible, and opens 360 degrees for easy one-handed use.  Overall, I still don't think I would use Lulu because of the limited cover option, but it might have a niche.

Chris

[madelf]

I was a bit startled at the price.

I ordered a copy of the playtest version of my game as a trial run, but I doubt that I'll run the final product through it.

For a 190 page 6x9 perfect bound book, (with shipping -  they only offer fedex, the most expensive shipping method possible short of personal delivery)...I was charged nearly $14.00. That's with the royalty to me set at zero.
So, basically if I take no profit from the book at all, it will still sell for just slightly less than $14.00

I could see it being a challenge to sell a book like that for much more than the minimum fee. It certainly doesn't leave much room for a profit margin.

On the other hand, it does take away alot of the hassles of upfront payment, procesing orders, packing, shipping, etc.

It's going to take some thought, I guess.

[Mike Holmes]

RPG Mall is run by James, who knows RPGs, and the market. Further, if you sell via RPGMall, that means that you have the potential sales to RPG players browsing there.

These are big advantages for RPG Mall, I'd say, especially if you want them to be your web presence. For Clinton who has his own, this isn't that much of an advantage.

Mike

[jasonhead]

I've actually only used Lulu.com.  I've ordered several of my own books from them and the print quality is excellent, the covers are fine and it is so easy to use.  The storefront that you can set up is really good and you can have a generic one or more customizable.  

The major drawback I can see is that with Lulu you are catering toward novel readers and my books are books for RPG.  You definitely have a greater target audience with RPGmall or shop etc.  Not everyone that visits lulu.com is a gamer.  Most everyone that visits RPG is.  Plus, it looks like the prospects of actually selling anything is much greater at RPG.  Although I haven't really spend much money advertising the game yet, I haven't made a single sale from Lulu.  (By the way, if anyone has any ideas on marketing on a budget I would love to hear them).  I believe I would have a better chance on RPG.  

Last thought, I guess you can do both.  I have yet to submit a PDF to RPGmall because it seems very confusing.  All the specs you have to have for the book and cover.  Lulu is much easier.  They convert a Word document into a PDF for you that matches their printer.

Anyway, I love Lulu.com for now.

jason

[Lxndr]

Yeah, I know what you mean, jason.  And if you're doing a size other than 8.5 x 11, Lulu and rpgmall don't offer the same smaller size (6 x 9 vs 5.5 x 8.5).  Which might lead to interesting formatting issues, although in theory Lulu resizes anything you submit (so submitting a 5.5 x 8.5 to Lulu.com would just lead to a slightly larger printing).  

My solution was to sell pdfs through both lulu and rpgnow, and only sell printed books through one site (in my case, I chose lulu, but it was a very close call - if you read this thread you can see sort of how I got convinced).  It'll be nice to give Donjon some rpg-related company in the games section (well, there's a d20 product, but that's really not the same thing).

[Lance D. Allen]

One nit to pick.. Clinton's original calculations were off by 10 cents. Lulu gets $1.35, but everything else was right on.

Definitely an intriguing option. I'll probably do some comparison shopping myself once I get to the stage where I'm actually looking to print, and Lulu will be on my list.

[xiombarg]

Definitely an intriguing option. I'll probably do some comparison shopping myself once I get to the stage where I'm actually looking to print, and Lulu will be on my list.

Personally, I don't see what's bad -- except possibly in terms of complexity -- with, say, putting your game out through RPGMall AND Lulu. The more outlets, the better, eh?

[Lxndr]

It's an issue if you want to do the "digest" size, Kirt, since RPGmall does 5.5 x 8.5, and Lulu does 6 x 9.  It's not a big difference, but it's not an insignificant one, either (enough that you might want to get two separate layouts, instead of just re-sizing).  That's why I'm only offering a print copy from one location.  Of course, if your book is "standard" rpg size, 8.5 x 11, then there should be no problem at all.

On the other hand, hosting pdfs at both rpgnow and lulu isn't difficult at all, since neither one has anything like an exclusive contract.  I just wish rpgnow didn't require you to print out a contract, sign it, and fax it in, but that's an incredibly minor complaint and I know it.  I figure the added pdf outlets will be good for the print sales of the book too, even if print sales only exist at one location.

[Tony Irwin]

I ordered a copy of the playtest version of my game as a trial run, but I doubt that I'll run the final product through it.

For a 190 page 6x9 perfect bound book, (with shipping - they only offer fedex, the most expensive shipping method possible short of personal delivery)...I was charged nearly $14.00. That's with the royalty to me set at zero.
So, basically if I take no profit from the book at all, it will still sell for just slightly less than $14.00

I'd really appreciate it if you could tell us about the printing quality of the book once you receive it madelf (cover thickness, binding, ink etc).

Cheers,

Tony

[madelf]

I'd really appreciate it if you could tell us about the printing quality of the book once you receive it madelf (cover thickness, binding, ink etc).

Cheers,

Tony

Will do.

The shipping estimate has it showing up tomorrow.
I'll let you all know my opinion once I get a peak at it.

[madelf]

The draft copy of my game book arrived today from lulu.com, right on schedule.

Now it seems we'll get to see how their customer service does.


Overall, the book seems pretty good quality.
The printing, (inside and out) of both text and graphics is very good.
There are some unfortunate white flecks along the spine and along the edges where the black is coming off, but I rather suspect that has more to do with fedex using the box for a football than with any fault of lulu's (the box was quite battered and the poor book had fallen out of it's protective wrapping and was curled up and jammed over on one side from rattling around in the box. This is also what I suspect is the culprit for the slight cover curl)
The binding (perfect bound) seems quite solid, though only extended use will really tell for sure. At first appraisal I'd say it's as good as any softcover book I've seen, and better than some.
The cover could maybe stand to be a little heavier, but it's not bad at all.
The interior paper could stand to be a little heavier (there's some shadow visible from printing on the opposite side), but again not bad. I do like the cream colored paper. It's a nice touch and gives it a little extra elegance. (It's kind of funny, the paper is nearly the exact shade I used for the font color on the cover so it looks like a special order)

With one single issue aside...I was quite impressed with the quality of the book, and disappointed (as expected) in the shipping. (The shipping issue my be localized, I have never had good service from fedex in this area)

The single issue, and the reason for needing customer service...
Every other page in the book is blank.
Absolutely and completely blank.
I paid nearly $15 for... half of a book.
(And yes, the PDF uploaded to lulu is intact, all pages present and accounted for.

An email has been sent to lulu.com and I'll let you folks know how that works out.

[Lxndr]

Um, wow.

Yes, please, definitely let us know.  I don't want to set up print sales only to discover that lulu is chopping my books apart.

[madelf]

Um, wow.

Yes, please, definitely let us know.  I don't want to set up print sales only to discover that lulu is chopping my books apart.

I'm fairly sure the "chopping" is a fluke. There are too many happy users on their forum for it to be a common problem.

For now I'm viewing it as a good opportunity to discover how good their customer service is. Assuming they make the effort to sort out the problem in a reasonable manner and time frame, I'd be certainly willing to use them again on the basis of the book's general quality.

I am still cautiously optimistic.

[talysman]

here's a question: who here is currently selling POD format books at either website? I'd like to see samples of both, myself, before making a decision.