How important is page size?

[Steve Samson]

Since I decided to get serious about publishing an RPG of my own I have been toting around my original Warcraft manual as an inspiration. I love the size (8.5x7), cover art (two-tone, iconic, embossed) and feel of the manual. My game will be on the light side as far as page count (which is deliberate--I am going after the rules-light crowd), so figure soft-cover at maybe 50-60 pages, center-stapled. I plan on using a full-color cover, although I have something other than the standard look in mind for it.

My big question is how important it is to have a "standard" size book? Are distributors/stores less likely to carry something other than an 8.5x11 hardcover or perfect-bound softcover? Do you think that for a clean, professional and well-designed book a non-standard size can be an advantage, or do smaller books always have a smaller perceived value?

Steve

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Steve,

It's all about venue. Venue, venue, venue.

For an example, Adept Press (me) sells books constantly through direct orders on-line. But I also have a nice steady flow through distributors into a certain number of stores.

Is Sorcerer's physical design optimized for store sales? Actually, no. Distributors hate its look and its size. Retailers are nervous about it, but will put up with it. The reason they do that is because it boasts a fairly impressive physical package (if small): hard cover, embossed title, dust jacket.

Another example: My Life with Master and Universalis are sold almost exclusively on-line, with perhaps some retailer presence through personal contacts in the future. Are they optimized for retail sales? No, not at all. But they are perfect for mailing, which is important because just about every copy will have to be mailed. And they are very nifty/classy looking too.

A final example: The Riddle of Steel does very good business through on-line direct sales, but it also boasts an impressive presence in stores. Part of the reason for this (beyond its excellent word-of-mouth and on-line advertising) is its physical design: standard size, hard cover, certain elements of its graphics, and so on. It's absolutely optimized for distributor and retailer return on investment.

So it's all about venue. Consider the physical design of your game carefully, but always remember that anyone else's advice about it will be colored by their role in the industry, or by the roles they're familiar with.

Best,
Ron

[Trevis Martin]

And to note one non-indie game with an unusual format.  There is Nobilis which is about the size of a coffee table book (11 x 11) And with its unusual cover design and clean look makes quite an impact (I watched several people at Borders take it down and look at it, unsure of what it was.)

regards,

Trevis

[Luke]

Hi Steve,

I had Burning Wheel printed in digest-size (5.5x8.5), and the kids just love it. Most people appreciate its compact size.

I also had 1-color covers printed with a certain "look" to them. Again, the kids love'em.

Retailers? I've only encountered a few that didn't frown at them and shake their collective head. I could see the thought, "Not standard=not good" flashing behind their brow.

Would I change anything? No, not a thing. In fact, I'm planning on releasing more of the same.

But if I wanted to do a book that "sells" (in retail stores), I'd do a 8.5x11, glossy cover with tits all over it.

hope that helps,
-Luke

ps: center stapled is called "saddle stitched" in printer lingo.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

It strikes me that I should clarify the difference between game stores and bookstores (e.g. Borders). Only game stores really care about size-based format: they want 8.5x11, hard-cover core books, a line of similar-sized but softcover perfect-bound supplements, and all that stuff people are used to seeing from AEG and similar companies.

If you want a presence in the game stores, you can stick to that format (e.g. The Riddle of Steel), deviate from it in a cunning way (Sorcerer), or deviate from it in a classy but cost-saving way (Burning Wheel). The latter two tactics require an increased promotional commitment.

But a presence in the bookstores is a different animal altogether, and it involves a whole set of interactions with book distributors that I confess I don't really grasp well. I don't, however, think it has much to do with the exact dimensions of the book - although the production quality, direct evidence that someone cared enough to make this thing very hefty or classy-looking, is indeed important.

What about the customers? Y'know, I am beginning to think that people's stated preferences or their kneejerk "recognition" preferences aren't very good indicators of how much they like the book in terms of actual ownership or use. More and more often, in talking about games people actually play, I'm getting the impression that a relatively small digest-sized book is far more popular than people admit, or even would have thought themselves prior to buying it.

Best,
Ron

[Eric Provost]

Speaking from personal purchase & use history I can say that the size & bind style of a game book influences not only if I purchase it, but also if I play it.  I purchased my over-sized copy of Nobilis when the game store owner in my area (Cthulhu Bob in Utah, if you've heard of him) walked up to me and just dropped it into my hands, saying "I thought you might be interested in this."  All I had to do was look at that coffee-table book covered in alabaster and gold-foil(ish) and I was in.  $50 out of my pocket that I hadn't planed on spending that day.  Poof.

On the other hand, my Neato-Factor in purchasing off the shelf is shut down completely when I spy a saddle-stitched rules set.  Just dosen't jump out at me.  However, I'm not as turned off to the same binding style when it's several saddle-stitched books in a boxed set.  Mmmm... boxed set.

Now, I've got myself a copy of Luke's Burning Wheel.  A nice little two-book set.  Looks great.  However, I think there was some bit of Neato Factor in the two books with similar size & binding, with the different color to tell the difference between them quickly while on the shelf.

As a last thought, if the game book in question contains stuff I'll probably want to referance during the game, then I want something that will sit open easily during play.  Hardcovers usually do this nicely.  Pocket editions do not.  Therefore, I would never use a copy of any d20 game that didn't sit open nicely.

Hope that was helpful.

-Eric

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eric,

I think we can all take it as given that every customer is going to have a preference-profile for what he or she buys, and that it's certainly influenced by the book's physical features. However, I'm not sure if a "what I like" survey is going to help any particular publisher make a useful decision. Clearly, no book design is going to be everybody's favorite.

So I'm hoping the thread can provide more wide-scale observations, perhaps present the range of results that people have seen with their different designs.

Best,
Ron

[Luke]

to make a point based on eric's observations/preferences: the consideration between reference book vs display piece and hence lay-flat binding vs non-lay-flat is definitely one to consider.

Saddle-stitch can be laid/folded flat. In general, perfect bound cannot be laid flat without breaking the binding. Hardcovers usually use a lay-flat binding, and are rather utilitarian in that aspect. However, one can pay extra these days for perfect-bound lay-flats -- though I can't vouch for their durability.

Just something to consider in the cover/binding/format issue.

-Luke

[madelf]

In talking (or rather emailing) with a distributor, I asked about the book-size issue.
Apparently it's primarily a shipping thing, standard books fit a standard box. It makes things easy. But, while he said it probably is an issues, it's really not a big one.

So, for whatever that's worth...

[Christopher Weeks]

In many game stores, new product is put on a display rack to showcase the cover on a raked set of upright-divided shelves.  The newest, most high-profile stuff is in front and drifts backwards over a few weeks before being resigned to the bulk shelves in back.

Small/odd sized books have two courses they might normally take.  They are sometimes shuffled back in the rake as normal and get hidden by the newest D20 product or boardgame or whatever.  Or, the owner/clerk realizes that would happen and conciously leaves it to the front or arranges the "new arrivals" shelf around it.

I'm wondering if anyone has observed a preponderance of one course over the other.  And more, if any of you game designers out there have picked sizes based on this or similar retail phenomena.

I suppose it's also worth nothing that exceptionally small things are often kept right on the front counter instead of going through that system.

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Chris,

My experience is that most game store owners will not only move the smaller items off the new-product rack when their time comes, but do so in such a way as to forget about them. For many stores, once it's off that rack, it's just "shelf stuff," spine out and off the mental radar screen. Shelf stuff looks like stock and it's what constitutes the bulk of material in the store, lining the wall, but in retail terms it's really sort of a warehouse for what will eventually become sales (clearance) material or most likely eventually get shuffled in lots to some other retailer or maybe a distributor, in big, ill-catalogued boxes. If someone happens to buy from the shelf-stuff, well and good, but it's not what the retailers are usually focused on.

Instead, retailers are most often concerned with whatever they've deep-ordered, as it represents an immediate and overriding debt, so they work from a kind of wave-front mentality.

That brings to me to a major, related issue: profit margin and the potential for re-order. Every single face-out item in that store represents a potential net gain - and if it's a small net gain, even if that item sells, it's just not a big fish to the retailer-mind. It was ordered on a lark, it sold, end of story, order for next month and include a fistful of lark-items in that order too - probably not including this thing that just sold.

So the smaller, off-size items are in a real bind. Once off the new-product rack, they get stuffed into spine-out shelves and forgotten. If they sell, whether off that rack or later, they're often unnoticed.

All of the above applies to the majority of retail game stores I've dealt with in any way (customer, publisher, etc) - but not all of them. Finding the exceptions is a major, major concern for the small independent publisher.

Best,
Ron

[Alex Johnson]

I've never given the idea of profile (cover dimensions) much thought for game books, mainly because I've never come across an RPG in any dimension other than 8.5x11 (give or take 0.25").  Usually I think of textbooks and fiction in this way, in which case I prefer the digest and semi-digest sizes over full A4 size pages...UNLESS the content of the book is heavily table based and requires a given format to prevent row or column breaks.  Now for an RPG, I usually prefer soft cover saddle-stitched.  Something light and durable (IME).  My favorite RPG books are the D&D boxed set (Mentzer revisions) manuals.  48-96 pages per booklet, black and white, with conservative use of line art.  I have to say thought that if you need a think manual, like Star Wars or D&D3E, then a hardbound, full color presentation gets and holds my attention.

[Nathan P.]

Regarding retail product placement:

At the small, family-owned game store I used to work at, we had standing orders to organize shelves with products being placed side-by-side and cover-out. The motto was "If they can't see it, they can't buy it". Each shelf was usually organized by size, with the smaller books either on the left or the right, but still plainly visible.

I don't know how common this kind of organization is, but I tend to think that smaller, locally-owned stores are more likely to do these kinds of things than larger chains or bookstores - another reason to sell local!

Thank you for your time,
Nathan P.

[KeithBVaughn]

Although digest sized books were sold and were the standard for the rpg hobby in the early days, it seems that everyone forgets they were sold in boxes. Sturdy or not so sturdy boxes that held not only the core books but also some suppliments, adventures and dice.

The suppliments were sold with the intention to add to the box and you could usually fit several in the box before it was full. Digest sized was great and you could avoid the amount of artwork due to the smaller "wall of print in the letter sized pages of today.

All I'm saying is that digest-sized books were not sold alone, they were part of a system. The initial reason for the perfect bound 8 1/2 x 11 was to save the cost of the box. It's something to be considered and dealt with.

Keith

[jdagna]

In my somewhat limited discussions with retailers, they all definitely prefer the 8.5x11 books.  One of them specifically mentioned being glad the he sold his last copy of Nobilis because it kept sticking out into the aisle (so naturally, he didn't order any more even though they sold).  However, I've also received the impression that the preference on size doesn't really enter into the decision to buy - in other words, they'll buy it or not based on their perception of the product, and then just gripe about odd sizes after the fact.

However, I think saddle-stitching is a really bad idea.  For one thing, many printers actually charge more for it than for perfect binding.  However, the more important thing is spine appeal.  Actually seeing my game on a few store shelves made me realize something: most stores (at least around Seattle) put almost all of their product on shelves with nothing but the spine showing and that I should have worked harder to make an appealing spine*.  Saddle-stitching leaves you no room at all for text or art on a spine.  As a shopper, I can say that I would literally never pick your book off the shelf to even see the cover unless I saw an interesting spine.

* The spines of my first two books turned out basically black and white because I wasn't putting my real effort there and the cover art happened to fall that way.  While very readable (my #1 priority) they're also boring and not eye-catching, and I often wonder whether that'll hurt me.

Anyway, also consider the logistical end of things.  I can buy boxes for 8.5x11 books slightly more cheaply than for any other size and they're available from more places.  I also know that when I take other people's products to conventions, they're easier to pack if they match my existing 8.5x11 products.  I imagine retailers and distributors face the same issue. Neither factor is particularly definitive, but it's a couple of extra points in favor of the traditional size (for me).  I would certainly hate to earn a reputation as "that odd-sized book that always gets destroyed in shipping" :)