Male Dominance in RPGs

[Itse]

having all female NPCs (and any female PCs being run by male players) defined more by their sexual characteristics than by their personalities (ie, making them all prissy virgins or massive sluts) is again pretty objectifying, and probably isn't making most women comfortable.

Fourth, having an adventure session built around planning the sack of a town and including a breakdown of which PC is going to rape which NPC (because "she's hot"), not to mention working out how the rape is going to be undertaken (up to and including technique and what humiliating actions you're going to force her to undertake) is, again, not the route to producing a gender neutral environment in which women are going to feel particularly comfortable joining in your activities.

I just have to say this, even if this is not the most constructive of postings. This just seems to be a subject that comes up in internet-discussions about women in gaming.

I find the things you say to be weird, in the "I've never seen that, I've never even heard of that in any place except internet, and I've been around and talked to a lot of people" sense. As I have been an active member in a pretty large roleplaying association I know a lot people who have a lot of experience with roleplaying, and they've heard a lot of stories from a lot more people. I asked around somewhat, and no-one here had really heard of what you were talking about. They were mostly confused about the idea. Comments like "I've had a female player character raped in my game" by a female GM approaching thirties is what came up. Rapes as a passtime among looting and pillaging, that was just thought as weird. Especially so if it's done in a gaming group with both genders and the players don't know each other well enough to comfortably deal with such things. Male players hitting on female players, yes, but character harassment? Not really. The females were our friends, girlfriends or someones (everyones) girlfriend-prospects, it would've been weird and stupid. Not that we were perfect gentlemen, but we certainly did not rape their characters.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining how as a I would've been that interested in the subject. Sex yes, but rape? As a kid and a teenager (I can't imagine you're talking about adult players), "rape" was basicly in the "weird sex / weird violence" -category, just "weird" that is, not exactly interesting. I mean, rape? What the hell is so cool about that? It's freaky  as sex, as violence it's kinda slow and bothersome, and I don't recall ever considering it funny.

I admit that the way female NPC:s have been portrayed were propably not the most realistic, but I also can't recognize this "virgin or slut" -thing. We rolled dice to pick up girls, and yes, we rolled dice for things like "was it good sex" and "how pretty/hot was she", and there propably was immature fun related to it in general (I don't recall it being very detailed), but I don't really see that as the same thing. Basicly I'd say the female characters were about as sexually oriented as the male, and about as realistic. We didn't rape NPC:s, even if we did play Cyberpunk and the gaming was pretty much "destruction and all sorts of fun". That did mean sex and things like ramming trucks into TV studios, destroying bars with chainguns, and I remember that I had a psycho character who ate cops, so yeah, there was violence and taboo breaking.

If where you come from (I'm Finnish) there are a lot of males who either don't know that girls are easily offended by even hints of rape or they don't care, I'd say you have a culture problem. (Either that or you just have an extensive number of jerks there, which seems unlikely.) Personally I'd be more inclined to believe that you're just exaggerating. "Girls not like rape + me want girls like me = me not talk rape" seems to me like something most guys should figure out pretty young. I just can't believe this is really an issue in a significant amount (enough to cause a notable decline in women in gaming), even where you come from.

(On the other hand, in USA they make a number out of a boob in telly and there seems to be all kinds of issues about things like "seeing your sister / parent / friend of opposite sex naked", so yeah, different culture.)

[Ben O'Neal]

First, not every social interaction between a man and a woman is an invitation to be hit upon, and if you think and act as if they are, and don't pick up on signals to the contrary, this could be considered a less than friendly environment for the woman. It's probably more accurately described as a form of androcentrism, or an objectification of women.

of course, but... what does this have to do with misogyny? if a guy hits on a girl, i think it's stretching it a bit to label him as a misogynist. if he hits on every girl he interacts with, then sure he is a bit of a loser and lacks basic relationship skills, but his behaviour is kind of exactly opposite to what you'd expect if he hated women. i also think it's stretching it a bit to claim his attitude is "objectification of women", as his inept desires to be with a woman say nothing about his persective of them as sex objects. sometimes they might correlate, but they are otherwise completely independant. on a side note, if this hypothetical guy (or hypothetical personification of many inept guys) is truly a 'dork', and thus chronically unsuccessful with women, is it not so hard to understand why he might be a bit androcentric? just a thought.

your stereotypes are certainly not anything i have ever encountered, but i can imagine their reality knowing what i do about people. i can certainly sympathise that a vast portion of humanity as a whole, male or female, "geeks" "jocks" or any other stereotypical social category you care to place them into, are jerks and socially retarded. but there is no gender bias in that ineptitude.

however, i noticed something in your post, a recurring theme if you will. many times you mention how male gamers can make women feel uncomfortable. i think this is an important point for many reasons.

first, subjective experiences DO NOT define objective reality. just because someone makes you feel uncomfortable, does not mean that they hate you. it doesn't even mean that they are doing so intentionally, nor does it mean that they are inconsiderate. in fact, all it means is that you feel uncomfortable. no more. what's my point? if they make you feel uncomfortable, you can ascribe it to whatever you wish, but your justification is no more a reality than the fictional world of an RPG. if you are uncomfortable, say so, change things, or leave. but assuming too much, such as assuming misogyny, is not constructive, especially when the objective evidence does not support such a claim.

second, if these men are as dorky and inept as you claim, perhaps your mere presence is making them uncomfortable. should they change to make you comfortable, or should you leave to make them comfortable? who has priority? who's gaming experience is more important? if you are a minority, do they win? or do you win because you are a girl? i don't know the answers to these questions, i'm just raising them. it's your reality and your gaming experience.

third, are there truly so few geeks around that it's hard to find a group with social skills? i found three, and the two gaming girls i know have found a few groups too. and neither of them have ever had any of the problems that have been reported here. but then again, we are all young and australian. there are going to be assholes in every pursuit. that's unavoidable. it's called people.

i also doubt that situations where females might feel uncomfortable are at all limited or more common among gamers and "geeks". in fact, i can think of a few situations/hobbies off the top of my head that are at least as bad as you claim or worse, such as car enthusiasts, professional sports, and many "blokey" workplaces such as builders and such. i've had at least a small amount of experience with each of these and i can safely say they are all far worse and more explicit in their objectification of women than gamers are. perhaps the level of interaction that women have with such pursuits is the biggest factor in how large the problem is percieved as being.

But these behaviors are not respectful of women, and no matter how 'realistic' rape and pillage may be, not that many women are going to find it fun to explore the rape aspect of that historic fact in great detail. And if you are a guy and are finding it fun, ask yourself why? Because I certainly don't get it, but I do keep seeing it

again, i've never seen this, and actually never knew people gamed like that until i read a few of these posts. just a thought, but would you feel any different if it were female gamers, playing female characters, who were raping and pillaging handsome muscular men? just a thought. if the game is trying to simulate real history, so be it. if not and you don't like it, why play? but i think i have a solution: be a GM. that way you can ensure no-one rapes or pillages, and if they do you can have your divine vengeance upon them. if a player defines their female character by her sexual characteristics simply exlude them from the group. as a GM you could easily and quickly do away with all the problems you seem concerned about.

but i dunno if anyone is interested in answering this question, but i'd really like to know: If you are a girl, how many female characters have you played, and how many male? if you are a guy, how many female characters have you played, and how many male?

myself? i've played a female sorcerer, and male dark moon monk. Right now i'm only GMing, and the main NPC is a male swashbuckling thief, while the most powerful character they've yet seen was a female mage.

[Taina]

To add to John's comments about gendered forms of storytelling:

Personally, I would associate hierarchical with Illusionism but not inherently with traditional GM power. For example, a game like Pantheon dispenses with the GM -- but it results in a very competitive mode of storytelling which I think is very different from the stereotypically-feminine dialogic mode. So I don't this has much to do with overly male demographic of RPGs, but it is interesting to consider.

John Fiske (a cultural studies academic) identifies a feminine television aesthetic - elements of television that tend to be more attractive to women. These elements include open-ended storylines, strong female characters, room to question a central narrative voice, and an emphasis on process rather than the resolution of a problem.

In the great majority of my roleplaying experience, these elements are not often found in roleplaying games. Story, plot or events focus around the resolution of a problem; once the problem is resolved, the game moves onto another plot. The GM's narrative voice overrides that of the other players. Most attempts I've seen at portraying strong female characters make them hyper-masculine.

I'm not suggesting that all women prefer a "feminine aesthetic", or that only women can prefer it, but I think that some styles of roleplaying are more likely to encourage women who try gaming to return.

Taina

[S'mon]

(On the other hand, in USA they make a number out of a boob in telly and there seems to be all kinds of issues about things like "seeing your sister / parent / friend of opposite sex naked", so yeah, different culture.)

There are large cultural differences even between the English-speaking western countries (USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand etc), which causes confusion in these kind of discussions.  European countries like Finland and Germany have different standards again.  From a UK perspective, the USA has stronger gender-demarcation than other countries, there seems to be more pressure for conformity or to belong to a particular grouping, and hostility to crossing group boundaries.  Eg the idea that RPGer = Geek, and what 'Geek culture' is expected to be about, seem much stronger in the USA.   The USA also has very strong cultural prohibitions on nudity, and association nudity = sex, stronger than the other English-speaking countries and much stronger than most European countries.

[Brennan Taylor]

having all female NPCs (and any female PCs being run by male players) defined more by their sexual characteristics than by their personalities (ie, making them all prissy virgins or massive sluts) is again pretty objectifying, and probably isn't making most women comfortable.

Fourth, having an adventure session built around planning the sack of a town and including a breakdown of which PC is going to rape which NPC (because "she's hot"), not to mention working out how the rape is going to be undertaken (up to and including technique and what humiliating actions you're going to force her to undertake) is, again, not the route to producing a gender neutral environment in which women are going to feel particularly comfortable joining in your activities.

I find the things you say to be weird, in the "I've never seen that, I've never even heard of that in any place except internet, and I've been around and talked to a lot of people" sense. As I have been an active member in a pretty large roleplaying association I know a lot people who have a lot of experience with roleplaying, and they've heard a lot of stories from a lot more people. I asked around somewhat, and no-one here had really heard of what you were talking about.

I can understand your disbelief, but I have to say that I think you can't dismiss these stories out of hand. I have heard a number of them directly from the women who experienced this behavior themselves, rather than third-hand internet tales.

I can personally testify to the mysogyny (and I don't use that word lightly) of the group Krista/Librisia describes. I found that group through the internet (I hadn't met any of them in person before we started to game), and played a session or two with them alone. They didn't seem too bad until Krista joined, and then suddenly a really ugly side appeared in the group. They were uniformly dismissive of her, and were constantly making rude comments. The game was 3rd Edition D&D, and she came in with a 1st level character when everyone else had 2nd to 3rd level characters since they had been playing for some time. She received constant digs about her character's ability relative to the group. The overall atmosphere was extremely hostile, and it made the game so unpleasant that we both dropped out, which was obviously the goal of their behavior.

This behavior does go on, and I think it is a bad idea to pretend it doesn't. If you have never seen it, that is good. Most of the groups we are involved in would never dream of acting this way, but just because we choose this sort of person to game with doesn't mean that these other people aren't out there.

[AnyaTheBlue]

I have to head out to work, but just a quick comment on the rape thing.

All of the stuff I mentioned in my previous post is behavior I witnessed personally, in games I was in.  And they happened at different times, in widely different areas of the US (Minnesota, Nevada, and Oregon spring to mind).  But they were mostly in the 80s (I'm old), and mostly during the Jr. High/High School periods (say, roughly 12-18 year old males).

I would not for a second say that this behavior is exactly common amongst gamers, but when it shows up it seems far nastier than anywhere else I've seen it in society outside of movies and tv-shows which are trying to show a stereotyped "women-hating" subculture.

The whole rape thing, with who was going to screw whom, why, and how, was pretty disgusting, but some of the same players were also involved in a superhero game where the GM made the villain a disliked guy from school and the heroes proceeded to beat the crap out of him when he was unmasked.

Obviously, not a very well adjusted group of people.  I tried my best to avoid them both in gaming and in real life after witnessing all this.

For the record, I am a woman, and I've played both male and female characters.  But in my case the situation is a http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9738&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45#103328">bit more complicated...

[John Kim]

As a case study in this sort of behavior, I would point to the Lord of the Rings game I played in, that I described in an earlier thread, http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6543">Horseplay Gone Too Far?.  It wasn't incredibly horrible or anything (I stayed in the campaign, after all) -- but it was enough to make me sit up and go "Hmmm" and dislike it.  At that time, there was one female player (playing a male character) in the LOTR campaign, but she dropped out a few sessions later.

[Bankuei]

Hi folks,

Just to add another, but vital factor to the mix, check out the power dominance issues that usually crop up in dysfunctional game groups.  Usually we have one or two dominant personalities, a group of lesser folks looking to fit in, and a game about communication where the majority of people are bad at communicating in play, usually utilizing emotional dominance or passive aggressive tactics to deal with each other.  

Pretty bare bones Alpha Male stuff going on.

Then throw a woman into the mix.  As someone mentioned to me, "Guys are willing to put up with hazing and a lot of shit to fit in with other guys, women are not willing to do so to fit in with the guys."

I put the rape factor into the emotional dominance aspect, usually by folks who are honestly afraid of women(or do it to other male players to affirm their dominance).

Overall, I'd say this has less to do specifically with geek culture, and more to do with any group of guys, low self esteem, poor social skills, trying to prove their manhood to each other.  The only difference is that roleplaying is less of a social venue than other similar groups(gangs, college boys, etc.) and that you have more imaginary rape rather than real rape going on.

I'd say that when roleplaying is taken to larger social contexts than a long term, insulated group, instead to LARPS, conventions, etc, you tend to see these people get checked and develop a little more social skills, or at least keep the bullshit in line a little better.

Chris

[Doctor Xero]

John Fiske (a cultural studies academic) identifies a feminine television aesthetic - elements of television that tend to be more attractive to women. These elements include open-ended storylines, strong female characters, room to question a central narrative voice, and an emphasis on process rather than the resolution of a problem.

In the great majority of my roleplaying experience, these elements are not often found in roleplaying games. Story, plot or events focus around the resolution of a problem; once the problem is resolved, the game moves onto another plot. The GM's narrative voice overrides that of the other players. Most attempts I've seen at portraying strong female characters make them hyper-masculine.

Good points!

I'd like to point this out : I am one of those sorts of male gamers labelled "roleplayers" in the roleplayer/tactician dichotomy.  In the definitions of that particular dichotomy, roleplayers prefer process-oriented gaming to product-oriented gaming, relationships focus to rules focus, strong female and male characters both, and serial storylines over episodic storylines -- the very things you mention as being gendered as women's interests.

Because of this gendering, many male gamers who prefer roleplaying as I've described it above find themselves ostracized by the tacticians as effeminate!

Thus, by gendering an approach to storytelling (process-oriented open storylines are for women, product-oriented closed storylines are for men, etc.) instead of approaching them as two different but equal approaches, we suddenly link an individual's gender identity and his or her credibility with same-sex peers to his or her tastes in storytelling!  This means that a lot of men will feel immasculated and ostracized by other men if they profess to enjoying "roleplaying" (as I've defined it above) and a lot of women will feel mannish and ostracized by other women if they profess to enjoying tactical approaches.  I have been told this is exactly what happens to both male and female players.

I have found many male players who gush with gratitude when they discover that I run "roleplay" rather than tactical games -- finally they can enjoy process-oriented open storylines without sacrificing their masculine credibility!

Perhaps this is why the majority of gaming groups with which I have been involved have been close to 50/50 male and female?

Doctor Xero

[M. J. Young]

If you are a girl, how many female characters have you played, and how many male? if you are a guy, how many female characters have you played, and how many male?

First, I'm a guy. I tend to expect that people know that, but Krista called me on it a while back (and shame on her, because she met me at a convention) and it is true that my handle is a bit gender neutral.

Second, I have done far more refereeing than playing over the decades; I almost always wind up behind the screen.

Oddly, as I think about it now, it seems that my female:male character ratio has been declining in recent years. I was going to say three to one, but among more recent characters there has been a greater tendency to play males. In a Gamma World game in which I played a few years back, one of the (two) characters I played was originally conceptualized as being male; for the other, I rolled the dice, even odds, and it wound up also male.

The first character I ever played (as a player) was female.

Taking a step back, though, this was probably part of that discovery/simulationist streak I've always had.

When I was in college, I took a course in creative writing. We were asked to do an internal character sketch--that is, convey information about the personality of a character by writing a piece as seen through the eyes of the character. I decided to do a woman, modeling some of it on my perception of my wife.

The professor read the paper to the class and asked for comments, whether the character seemed believable, whether they could identify with her. The class of fourteen girls and one other guy all said it was very well written. Then the professor added that it was written by a guy, and suddenly several of the girls were saying that they knew there was something wrong about it that they just couldn't put their finger on. Well, that's probably more relevant to some other discussion--but the point here is that I was very interested as a writer in expressing female characters credibly, and that drove that initial choice. Probably thereafter every third or fourth character I played was female (although one was a dralasite, an alien creature with no sex-based roles and life-cycle gender transformations, so I'm not sure how to count that one). Some of my best/favorites are female.

I'll also note in passing that on at least two occasions I've played female NPCs with personalities that led male characters played by male players to propose to them. I'm not sure whether that says I play credible females, or whether I know what men want.

--M. J. Young

[S'mon]

but i dunno if anyone is interested in answering this question, but i'd really like to know: If you are a girl, how many female characters have you played, and how many male? if you are a guy, how many female characters have you played, and how many male?

I'm male, I was going to say I play around 2 male PCs to 1 female, but it's tending more to 1:1, currently around 3/5 of recent PCs are male I'd say.  Right now I GM one game and play in another (Midnight setting for D&D).  In the game I play in the GM is female, there are 5 male players and 1 female.  My PC and the female player's PC are kick-ass female Fighters*, the rest of the players' PCs are male and relatively weak - rogues, spellcasters and so on.  The male players occasionally refer to my PC as 'he', which is a bit annoying.  Generally I find that for female characters to get respect in a mostly male group they need to be noticeably 'better' - tougher, more skillful, better fighters, better spellcasters - than the male characters, and this doesn't seem to be affected by the gender of the player.

*My PC Zana Than has a kind of mother-hen approach to the rest of the party; she tries to protect them from the orcs, she soaks up the melee damage to help keep the more vulnerable PCs alive, and tries to shepherd them along.

I understand from EN World that many GMs at least in the USA don't allow cross-gender PCs; certainly the GM can make it uncomfortable to do so even if they don't ban it.  Fortunately my Midnight GM is great and seems to like my character concept.  :)

[Christopher Weeks]

many GMs at least in the USA don't allow cross-gender PCs;

I don't think this could be terribly common since I've never once heard of it in ~24 years with RPGs.

And I'm not sure what it's relevant to, but I've probably played about 10% female characters.

Chris

[james_west]

Hello, all -

I've only played one female PC in recent years, in an online game with a bunch of strangers (only the fellow who organized the game knew who we were.) I chose this venue to try playing a female PC for precisely the reasons relevant to the writing class; it's easier to be believable with gender anonymity.

Before each session of the game, I'd spend about an hour reading romance novels written by a female author, with an adventuress heroine. This got me into the proper mindset to mimic both the writing style and the behavior patterns. My purpose, then, was essentionally immersionist (sim/exploration of character if you will); I wanted to see how well I could get into the female mindset. For the record, I apparently did a very good job of behaving believably female, but it was entirely through imitation, not because I understood why I was acting the way I was.

The game had four male PCs and two female PCs, including me. No initial idea of gender of the players. However, I noticed by the end of the first session that most everyone was inordinately condescending to me, in a weird way that I haven't encountered before or since (praising my every move in private messages, for instance.) The other female PC didn't return after the first session, and wasn't very active during it (still don't know gender of player).

In game, my character was consistently subtly flirtatious with one important NPC (who was, at least to me, clearly the villain), but otherwise play had essentially no sexual/romantic content.

By the end of the fourth session, every single one of the other players had at least vaguely hit on me by e-mail (completely outside of the game environent). I always made it clear, without acknowledging that they'd hit on me, that I was male in my replies; two of them wrote back and thought I was making up that I was male. At that point, the game broke up over unrelated (scheduling) reasons.

So ... my one experience as a 'female' player was acutely uncomfortable.  Perhaps if you actually are female, you're used to being treated this way - but even so, I can't imagine it to be enjoyable to be hit on by a bunch of strangers and treated as mildly addled.

- James

[S'mon]

many GMs at least in the USA don't allow cross-gender PCs;

I don't think this could be terribly common since I've never once heard of it in ~24 years with RPGs.

I'm sure it's not common (actually, I sure hope it's not common) and I had never heard of it before I read various "Do you allow cross-gender PCs?" threads on ENWorld - a surprisingly high number of people said they didn't, as an absolute rule.  It tends to be the more 'macho' type GMs, from what I could ascertain.

[AnyaTheBlue]

(snip)
The game had four male PCs and two female PCs, including me. No initial idea of gender of the players. However, I noticed by the end of the first session that most everyone was inordinately condescending to me, in a weird way that I haven't encountered before or since (praising my every move in private messages, for instance.)
(snip)
By the end of the fourth session, every single one of the other players had at least vaguely hit on me by e-mail (completely outside of the game environent).
(snip)
So ... my one experience as a 'female' player was acutely uncomfortable.  Perhaps if you actually are female, you're used to being treated this way - but even so, I can't imagine it to be enjoyable to be hit on by a bunch of strangers and treated as mildly addled.

I can't speak for every female gamer, but this kind of behavior is common, although not universal.  What is perhaps even more disheartening is that it is in no way restricted to the gaming table -- it happens on a daily basis in my workplace, too.  Speaking for myself, I can't say that I'm used to it, but I do know to expect it, and I kind of know how to handle it, for the most part.  It is creepy, though.

One of the very common things that men seem to discover quickly when exploring female gender roles (ie, dressing in drag for halloween, cross-presenting online, or whatever) is the rather jarring loss of male privilege.  If you aren't a 'Straight White Normal Male' you get treated differently in our culture, and most men don't really understand what that means until they experience it for themselves.  It's not limited to women -- anybody who is too different gets a kind of condescending cold shoulder, at least in my experience.

I'm really glad you posted, James.  It's nice to see I'm not alone in having experienced some of this stuff.  =)