Prescience and teleportation: Sorcerers of Arrakis

[erithromycin]

Hmm. Breeding program as an extended ritual is cool, but [sudden intuitive flash, hang on] the object is not to unite the daemon but to provide a vessel capable of dealing with it.

Paul is a sorceror bred to barter with the same daemon that the Bene Gesserit deal with, Ancestral Memory!

It's a parasite/possessor that bestows cover, and, oh dear. We've forgotten something. How the hell do we cope with The Voice? Mind control in Sorceror?

Then there's the pain box. Characters are going to have a minimum will if they're going to face the Gom Jabbar. Or being damn lucky.

So, there's a daemon for the Bene Gesserit and the Kwisatz Haderach, and Alia's age means that, as a possessor, it wins, sort of.

Mentats? It's more cover, I think, and the ritual is the training, and the need is a Lynchian mantra.

Bene Tleilax as possessors/passers is good, especially for ghola, and Navigators, well, somehow Navigators get Travel and, you're right Hint fits better. Maybe some sort of deal with a different part of ancestry? Instinct?

What if that's the actual form? Ancestry? So much of Dune is built around heritage and prophecy, so if they're dealing with Ancestral Memory [Bene Gesserit/Kwisatz Haderach, bestowing Cover in the form of Knowledge and The Voice], Ancestral Intellect [Mentats, bestowing Cover in the form of calculating power], Ancestral Instinct [Navigators, giving them Travel and Hint], and Ancestral Strengths [Bene Tleilax, bestowing Force-y type things].

Throw in something where the GM actually maps out the game in advance [there is already a story, but it's how it happens that makes the game], and players can barter with History and Fate at some ridiculous disadvantage [roleplaying bonuses and massive 'rituals' here] to make things happen in a way that's more to their advantage.

How does that sit?

[Dav]

"Throw in something where the GM actually maps out the game in advance [there is already a story, but it's how it happens that makes the game], and players can barter with History and Fate at some ridiculous disadvantage [roleplaying bonuses and massive 'rituals' here] to make things happen in a way that's more to their advantage."

This sounds great.  I think you have nailed down the corners on this one without too much trouble.

Regarding the Voice, let us look at it as such (and here, Lynch actually gives us a helping hand):  Command allows control over nonhuman creatures (animals).  Those who have not passed the tests of the Bene Gesserit (perhaps an altered "binding" ritual against ancestral memory (ah, the first meme demon type)) are "less than human", and thus, sceceptible to Command as written in the game.

We need to define Humanity in these terms then, which to me would be a mixture of duty (to family, house, sect,etc), knowledge (ah, tie it to Lore as a capping influence if it were to be a minisupplement), and just a hint of compassion.  The true test of Humanity is being capable of balancing the entire sphere of influences to become "functional" (I use this loosely).  Alia definitely fails, while Paul succeeds rather well (for a time).  The epitome of Humanity, then, in Dune would be Chani (to my mind), or perhaps the Princess...

I agree that mentats and some of the more peripheral professions and characters are best described by Cover.

Wow, it WILL work...

Dav

[erithromycin]

I think so too :smile:

Humanity as a form of duty is lovely, and everything else fits too. I'm not sure how to cap it with Lore?

Hang on, I'm going to do this from basics.

Will: Test against this to determine how 'Human' you are. This is the test of the Gom Jabbar! It'll give you something else, possibly, in fact, your humanity score. Aha! Characters will do this, and it'll be kept secret. The first 'daemon' you bind is yourself. [Why do I think that that might spark a mini-supplement on it's own?]

Lore: This is a measure of how well you know yourself. High for Bene Gesserits, Tleilaxu, low for Gholas until they are awakened, low for Navigators [They tend to lose, remember, which is why they live in spice clouds - They're ancestral instinct's need must be continually sated if they are to distract it long enough to make use of its powers. That's one of the big secrets! Navigators who lose become something really icky and bad, but I'm not sure what, this is a Dune aspect I hadn't considered until now, but what do massive amounts of spice actually do to the Human body? I digress, but I'll come back to this too.]
Probably reasonably high for Mentats.

Cover: Does what it always does, but Mentats get an additional one? Or a supplement when doing Mentat-y things, so Duncan would likely be Warrior: 4, Mentat: 3, producing Warrior Mentat: 7 where applicable, like analysing someone's fighting styles. The strength of Mentats with professions, for some are only Mentats, is that they can bring the paired one to bear, and then use the successes to really lay smack down, or negotiate like the devil, or somesuch. Neato.

Force: I'm not even sure it's called that. Anyway, the physical one. Pff. It does what it does.

Humanity: What Dav said, with modifiers above. I think it's what you bargain with FATE and PROPHECY with, with successes/failures changing your score as bindings/banishings.

FATE: What will happen to your line, ie, will produce the Kwisatz Haderach [Atreides], will rule Arrakis [Harkonnen], will survive at all costs [Bene Gesserit], the spice flow must continue [Guild], the empire must remain [Emperor], no house may use nuclear weapons upon another [CHOAM]. There are loads. Duncan Idaho's may well be [See that Paul succeeds]. That might be cool.

PROPHECY: What will happen in the story, ie, what the GM [with the players, or without them, or, indeed, with some involvement particularly in creating an initial relationship map that can be manipulated], ie, in Dune anyway, "all" that happens is:

The Kwisatz Haderach arrives.

This is really starting to get nice.

[Manu]

Wow !!! Kudos guys, it's a far cry from what I had envisioned, but it all sounds intriguing. The whole "pact with History"" thing is great, and I'm reminded of "Sorcerers Crusade" theme of Freewill, Fate and Destiny. (Actually the whole Daemon concept from SC is really inspiring for Parasite/Possessor demons).


I don't have much to contribute, I'm still mulling things over, and I have half a dozen other setting ideas I want to develop (yup Ron, working on Muslim Sci Fi and giant battleships ! )


Has anyone here read the Inquestor Chronicles from Somtow Sucharitkul? Great Dune-like far future, very colorfulbwith many parallels to Sorcerer's issues on Humanity and power.I really recommend it if you liked Dune, and even more so if you hated Dune !! (Ron: hint, hint)



Manu

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Manu,

Thanks for the reference, which sounds like something to check out.

Sorcerer and Sword offers rules for using Destiny in a pretty serious way, which could even override or replace the actual "commanding demons" elements of the game. This thread has convinced me that Dune (or a Dune-like setting) would be very functional using Sorcerer, but I think that 'Sword is the way to go.

The role-playing game which has tried hardest, so far, to generate this sort of SF is Fading Suns. I think it's a qualified success, or a close failure, perhaps, mainly because the concept of "character" in that game is modeled on the White Wolf concept, which in turn is pretty much the AD&D concept. We're talking about characters who grapple with Destiny, not about characters who get to go on missions for those who grapple with Destiny. I've tried to provide some steps in that direction in 'Sword.

Best,
Ron

[erithromycin]

Abomination] enjoys. Voice: Keep a point back for use? Or more? Or less? Anyway, it lets you test your Will against theirs, with their Humanity and your Level of Voice mixed in. I think that works. Use a form of Resolve to keep the Abomination at bay. Your Ancestral Memory [your level of extra cover] will test against your Will when you are placed in mortal dangeredit]. What I meant to say is that your Humanity can be positive or negative, or, indeed, balanced. Humanity is duty/selfishness. Selfish characters may succeed, but are less likely to do so than those who work for the good of others. A key part of the Gom Jabbar "A human would wait in the trap to kill the hunter and eliminate a threat to the race." Positive Humanity adds to your rolls, negative humanity adds to your difficulties.

_________________
"I wouldn't be satisfied with a roleplaying  session if I wasn't turned into a turkey or something"

[ This Message was edited by: erithromycin on 2001-12-13 13:33 ]