Streamlining the Creative Process

[Mike Holmes]

As "the Wolves" I suppose I ought to chime in.

I assume that you've seen the stickies at the top of Indie Design? What isn't present there that you're describing? It seems to me that what you're asking for is already there. If these aren't sufficient, then how do they fail?

You may note that I have these things called Standard Rants. I have them precisely for the reasons that you cite - I don't like writing the same things over and over. Are they also inappropriate? If so, is this all about presentation?

I'm personally not sure how much need there is to do outreach to potential designers. From a more Darwinian perspective, I think we enjoy a higher quality of dialog here in part because only people as dilligent and intelligent as yourself stick around for long. Do we really need to make it easier? Maybe we want to be elitist? At the very least there's the question of what the benefits will be if we do lower the barrier.

But let's assume that you're right for a moment, and we do need such a document. As Mike says above, we're hearing a lot of "we should do X". Well, if it needs to be done, then do it. Or are you looking for volunteers? Nobody seems to have your passion for this, or your particular vision - so if you want something done right, do it yourself. I'm sure that if you started something like this and needed help, you'd get it. But if you don't lead the way, you'll get something that's not quite what you think it should be (at best).

As to where it might be posted, contact Clinton and/or Ron to see what they think - in the end it's only their opinions that matter in regards to efforts of this nature. If they don't think it's appropriate, then it's pointless to start, really.

Mike

[Henri]

I started reading The Forge only a few weeks ago, and I've found what I've read incredibly fascinating and mind-opening with respect to game design and game play.  However, I had to bumble around a bit, eventually figuring out (I hope) most of the critical stuff I had to read in order to start understanding Forge discourse.  The resources that I found most useful were a couple of threads in "Site Discussion" written by clueless newbies like myself, which were then answered.  However, this is really inefficient.  I could have saved myself a lot of bumbling around if I had had some kind of "road map" or "welcome mat."  I think something like that, which would be easy to find for a total newcomer to the forge, which pointed people to System Does Matter, the GNS essay(s), and the various sticky threads, would be a great resource.  However, as Michael pointed out, some individual person has to actually take the time to do this.  I don't think anyone is disagreeing that in principle this would be a good thing to have.  

One thing I would like to point out though, is that if a "welcome mat" were to be created, I think it would be good if it weren't too rpg-design specific, since not everyone at the forge is primarily interested in design.  A quick guide to game design would probably also be a great resource, but I think that this is not the same thing as a quick guide to the forge.

-Henri

[Asrogoth]

As "the Wolves" I suppose I ought to chime in.

I assume that you've seen the stickies at the top of Indie Design? What isn't present there that you're describing? It seems to me that what you're asking for is already there. If these aren't sufficient, then how do they fail?

You may note that I have these things called Standard Rants. I have them precisely for the reasons that you cite - I don't like writing the same things over and over. Are they also inappropriate? If so, is this all about presentation?

Mike,

I guess I find them insufficient in that they (the stickies) are not "streamlined" in so far as they are not in one simplified document that focuses on the questions without a great deal of comment.  The information presented is great.  The Forge lives up to its namesake as a forge for indie games.  Anyway, my complaint isn't that threads don't exist or that we don't have some references to them, just that we don't have a streamlined source to present the designers with an "in-your-face" super-rant that can hit them before they post or have to spend days searching through the past threads to find out all the relevant information.


Your rants are great.  So I suppose that I'm more concerned about "presentation" -- hence the "streamlining".

Do we really need to make it easier? Maybe we want to be elitist? At the very least there's the question of what the benefits will be if we do lower the barrier.

But let's assume that you're right for a moment, and we do need such a document. As Mike says above, we're hearing a lot of "we should do X". Well, if it needs to be done, then do it. Or are you looking for volunteers? Nobody seems to have your passion for this, or your particular vision - so if you want something done right, do it yourself. I'm sure that if you started something like this and needed help, you'd get it. But if you don't lead the way, you'll get something that's not quite what you think it should be (at best).

We don't "need" to do anything.  The Forge is doing fine as it is.  But I think its purpose, the promotion and creation of indie games, would be better fulfilled through the application of a "streamlined" creative process.

As for me handling it, I'm all for it.  I'm just scared poop-less at the possibility.  I mean, I look at everything else by everyone else (with hundreds and thousands of posts) and consider myself to be extremely unqualified to even ATTEMPT such an effort.  If, as you suggest, knowledgable (sp?) Forgeites would support an endeavor started by a neophyte such as myself, I would be glad to undertake my "vision".  But I am not experienced enough with this topic to rely on my own knowledge to be an effective tool in creating such a document.

[Mike Holmes]

As for me handling it, I'm all for it.  I'm just scared poop-less at the possibility.  I mean, I look at everything else by everyone else (with hundreds and thousands of posts) and consider myself to be extremely unqualified to even ATTEMPT such an effort.  If, as you suggest, knowledgable (sp?) Forgeites would support an endeavor started by a neophyte such as myself, I would be glad to undertake my "vision".  But I am not experienced enough with this topic to rely on my own knowledge to be an effective tool in creating such a document.

What do you do for a living? I don't know you from boo, but I do know that you were sensible enough to come to this point, post this post in the appropriate place, and make a cogent point. Which means that you are eminently qualified to lead people in such a project. You have to start somewhere.

Note I said lead. That doesn't mean that you have to know everything yourself, just that you have to ask questions, and get people to participate. Which is all really hard stuff - but like I said, somebody has to do it. Oh, and it's unlikely to be too rewarding while you do it, too; people will fail to produce for you, etc. But it's the only way anything gets done. The main qualification for being a designer, or project leader, or anything is the dedication to see things through to the end. If you can do that, you're the best man for the job.

If anyone gives you lip about your low post count, send them to me. :-)

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Kenny, here's what Clinton and I have discussed since you began this thread.

1. A general welcome and information page should be added. It'll replace some of the existing pages from "About the Forge" and also borrow some material from threads stuck to the top of this forum. It will also summarize the functions of each forum.

2. There won't be a new forum. One point that hasn't quite been made in the discussion so far is that the Forge is expected to be a discourse community, and everyone here is expected to help newcomers as best they can. Every six months to a year or so, I have to remind folks about that, especially those who were helped when they were newcomers, and now realize (with some dismay) that they are expected to turn around and do the same for others.

3. The Forge changes. Our ability and standards for dealing with newcomers will necessarily lag behind the conditions that demand change, and the best we can do is a kind of Red Queen - running in order to stay where we are. Sometimes we get lucky and get ahead, but it's rare.

Oh yes - and if anyone wants to help put together ideas and concepts for the page I mentioned, then please feel free - but I'll tell you what I'm not interested in seeing: "Hey, make it like this! And add that!" I'm interested in real work, real contributions, and actual text, not recommendations for what another person supposed to write or design.

Best,
Ron

[M. J. Young]

As I was reading the posts since yesterday, I was thinking that the big problem I saw was, where do you put such a thing?

People don't read the stickies, at least, not all the people nor all the stickies. I suspect there are a few I've missed, and I post substantially here.

People don't read the articles, often, until someone points to them. Articles are different from forums, and sometimes people who have come to get feedback on their ideas don't realize the power of knowing the articles before they start.

Then it struck me. Some time back (maybe two years--time does fly, it seems) there was a Forge entry page that pointed people to the different sections. Then a design decision was made--a good one, overall, I think--to change the entry so that when you went to The Forge you started at the forums. There are a lot of advantages to this; but there are at least a few disadvantages. I have to keep a separate bookmark for the articles, so that if I need to check one of them I don't incidentally reset my "last visit to the forums" and so lose a bunch of posts that I never read. More on point, people who are new see the forum, and have nothing to tell them that there is more to us than this--and no matter how central the forums are to what we do here, there is more to us than this.

I think what would help would be not only a "welcome newcomers" section, but a blurb at the top of the forum which welcomes people to the forge, and which points them to the articles, the stickies, and the newcomers section--not a huge roadmap, but a starting point that sends you to the best places to begin.

Ron, I would be glad to help compose such a page as you describe; E-mail or PM me with what you need and how I can be involved.

--M. J. Young

[xiombarg]

My hope is that The Forge can make some sort of document/presentation to "streamline" the process for these people in order to make their transition into this community easier.

Again, to return to an earlier point: Why not make this document yourself? If it's good, it's likely to get adopted. Or, at the very least, you can point to it every time a particular issue comes up, like Mike's Standard Rants.

[Asrogoth]

Again, to return to an earlier point: Why not make this document yourself? If it's good, it's likely to get adopted. Or, at the very least, you can point to it every time a particular issue comes up, like Mike's Standard Rants.

Point taken and accepted.  I'll start work on this right away.

[clehrich]

Just to chime in on M.J.'s point, I think the way to go is to add one more little header up at the top, on the same line with "About the Forge," "Support the Forge," and so on.  The link would read something like, "New to the Forge?"  And when you clicked on it, it would take you to the "welcome mat" material discussed here.  Seems to me this would take minimal coding and wouldn't interfere with the way the regulars use the site.

Chris Lehrich