[Sorcerer] Sorcerers in Casablanca

[Paiku]

Don't worry Chris, I went into information overload about two days ago ;-)

That's why I plan on re-reading this excellent thread after our first session, and probably after the second and third and fourth as well.  In fact, I'm glad that we have at least three complete Sorcerer games on the docket.  I can tell that Sorcerer play is something that's going to get better with practice - better and richer and awesomer more enjoyable for everyone.

Wants will change.  Observe what the players respond to.  Riff off the details that the players provide.  Keep going back to the diagram on the back of the sheet which should really be on the front of the sheet (we need a catchier name for that thing: bullseye diagram? story bullseye? Price-Lore-Cover-Kicker (PLoCK diagram?)). 

Got it. *head spinning*

Just 2 days to go.  I'll let y'all know how it goes.  Thanks,
-Paiku

[Christopher Kubasik]

I've actually been struggling with what to call the diagram for over a year now.

I love Story-Bullseye. Thanks.

[Ron Edwards]

Actually the term's been around for a bit. In 2005, I cited Michael S. Miller as the author of the term "story bullseye" in Sorcerer: The Tenure Game, but the earliest thread I could find on short notice has me saying it (Demon Cops - character creation[/b]).

Best, Ron

[greyorm]

Wants will change.  Observe what the players respond to.  Riff off the details that the players provide.  Keep going back to the diagram on the back of the sheet which should really be on the front of the sheet (we need a catchier name for that thing: bullseye diagram? story bullseye? Price-Lore-Cover-Kicker (PLoCK diagram?)).

You forgot one. The most important. RELAX AND HAVE FUN.

Seriously, I'm not kidding. It is the Most Important Rule. Sorcerer is a lot to remember and learn. But don't stress.

[Paiku]

*sitting in corner, giggling madly and pulling out own hair*

[Paiku]

Gents, first session was exciting, cool, spooky, dramatic, imperfect, and we're all chomping at the bit for session 2!  I'll post some AP soon (work just exploded), but for now a couple of quick rules questions:

Is it possible to build a Contain without the demon, and then lure the demon into it? 
Perhaps equivalently, Is it possible to perform most of a Contain or Banish ritual without the demon, and then finish the ritual or "trigger the sorcery" when the demon is present? 
Can a sorcerer Summon a demon that is already present in the world?  What happens if he tries?

The characters are planning on ambushing an errant demon.  As far as I can tell, the rulebook doesn't address these special cases.  Perhaps these are peculiarities of sorcery which are open to each group's interpretation.

Thanks,
-John

[The Dragon Master]

I know that in the core book it talks about summoning a demon into a contain, so I'd assume that the contain works like building a cage. This is referenced in the section on Dumb Sorcery (listed in the Table of Contentes). In short, yes. Mind you, the standard disclaimer applies here of "it depends on your definition of Sorcery".

The second is about the same. The book defines Sorcerous rituals as taking an hour or more, so I could certainly see them beginning the process and attempting to lure the demon into it right at the end (though I wouldn't expect it to work like a pitfall kind of trap). Again. Standard disclaimer.

There was a discussion on the boards here about exactly that, and I think it was linked here (through the link to my discussion with Ron). Basically there are two "locations" (word used very loosely) demons might be, "here" and "not here". "Not here" doesn't mean "over there". It's a place that no God (assuming your setting has one) would accept as part of any creation. It is Void, Nothingness, the absence of any form of existence. This is where they are contacted from. This is where they are summoned from. Once they are here they can't be summoned away, because they've already been summoned. It helps to realize that "Summon" is the short form of the name of the ritual. The full one is "Summon Into Existence" (my interpretation there). Again. Standard Disclaimer.

[Ron Edwards]

Hold on - I'm going to have to answer the questions directly without reference to the posted replies, because I think some confusion's happening. So Paiku, the following is directly to you. I'll deal with why it's different from the first reply some other time.

1. If you have a demon already in existence, and you make a Contain, then the default is that the Contain will keep it out, not in. That's different from having a Contain, and Summoning a demon into it - that's fine. But I don't think that's what you were asking about. I think you were talking about a demon being, oh, right outside the door, and you make a Contain in your living room, then open the door and say, "Here demon demon." And the default for that is that the demon will walk up and bump its nose and not be able to get into the Contain.

I emphasized default because it is, in fact, possible to make a "demon trap" type Contain. But you have to set it up specifically as a trap, in a way above and beyond merely making the basic Contain. Think of the basic Contain as a simple box. If you Summon something into the box, it can't get out; if something's outside the box, it can't get in. Now think of tipping the box at an angle, and propping it up with a stick - OK, now something that's outside may meander beneath the box, and you take away the stick. As long as the player explains how there's a stick to prop it up, then what you're describing is OK. It requires no particular extra use of the mechanics. But the difference in terms of the fiction is very important.

2. I can see this one a mile off:

Is it possible to perform most of a Contain or Banish ritual without the demon, and then finish the ritual or "trigger the sorcery" when the demon is present?

Short answer: no. To be a little more long-winded, the player might have the character do something like this, and that's fine, but the roll must be treated as a snapshot, i.e, the relevant score's value is reduced to a single die.

When I talk about the ritual taking an hour or more, I'm talking about the ritual with the demon involved taking that amount of time. Your suggestion is trying to dodge the rules.

3. Summoning by definition means that the demon does not exist - it brings a Contacted demon into existence. If you try to Summon Xxxorg, and Xxxorg is in Montana (i.e. does exist), then you're basically jumpin' around making stupid noises for about as much effect as one might expect, as far as Xxxorg is concerned. Actually, you'd never get that far, because you have to Contact a demon before you Summon it, and the same point applies to Contact. You can't Contact a demon who exists (i.e. has been Summoned and hasn't been Banished).

You know what I'd do, maybe? The character run his or her Contact, and if successful, gets something else, not Xxxorg. And a lot, lot less desirable.

Best,Ron

[Paiku]

To Ron's reply:
1. Yes that's what we were after, exactly.
2. I admit it, we were trying to dodge the rules.  Sounds like we can do it with a Contain as in #1, but not with a Banish - at least not without being reduced to a single die (plus bonuses).  Well, we wouldn't want sorcery to be too easy, would we.  As long as they can spring a Contain on the beast, then they can take their time with the Banish.  Barring outside interference of course... *GM's snigger*
3. Right, that makes sense, and on this item I think Ron's and Dragon Master's responses agree.  Thanks both for clarifying.

Cheers,
-John

[Paiku]

Hi all, I've started the AP thread for Sorcerers in Casablanca with AP of our first session.  Fun, interesting, imperfect, promising.

The Forge - Sorcerers in Casablanca - AP

Cheers,
-John