Looking for feedback towards a game in an early state

[SamSlayde]

Hello everyone,

I'm just looking for some feedback on a little RPG I put together over the weekend. It's called the Less-Dice system, and the rules as of right now are here: http://www.mediafire.com/?76l66hcxyftivmr

I guess a little background is in order. I've never played or owned any diceless RPGs, or resource management RPGs, though I know they exist.  I built this system as a response to wanting something that didn't use dice or randomizers to determine success or failure, but still used them to represent certain grey factors, with a range of results.

Take a look and tell me what you think, I've had some new ideas since putting this PDF together, but it has the heart of the idea down.

I'm mostly looking for feedback towards things that you think are missing that would be encountered in a single game session.

It's a work in progress so I'll try to keep this updated as I work on it.

Thanks!

[SamSlayde]

Notes, read these after reading the PDF:

There are no rules for healing damage. But outside of magic, healing will take place over longer than a single session.

I'm considering an automatic perception rating, something like Mind + Manoeuvre. If someone doesn't like their score they can purchase a skill to replace it, or maybe improve it.

I'd also like to bring in a little more dice, I was thinking about making skill points worth a d4, but that makes them a lot more valuable. Changing a Burned action point to be worth a d6 is a less drastic change.

[Callan S.]

Hi Sam,

I suppose what I'll say will sound a complete non sequitur, but a bit of a repeating design pattern in RPG's is that the combat rules/main rules listed in the text are in no way connected to the outcome of the game? For example, say your off to save the princess - you have a fight with some goblins and yeah, the rules really nail down all sorts of moves and who takes damage and who hits who. But really for intricately resolving the goblin fight, the ruleset has done nothing towards resolving the princess saving at all? In fact (and this is the important thing), if we considere the princess saving as the important thing, then the rules have absolutely nothing to do with what's important in the session. Have you noticed this in other RPGs? And what do you think?

[SamSlayde]

You're right, that is a bit of a non sequitur.

However, you're not wrong, but I think my response to this is the same as to the question "is game design going in X or Y direction?", and that is: game design is going in all directions at once. For everyone going in one direction, someone is going completely the opposite direction.

In many games, mine included, the focus is more on using the mechanics to answer a specific question at hand, not bring the story any closer to it's conclusion in anyway, other than to determine a direction. These games want a more free flow to how they are structured, having mechanics the specifically drive the characters towards the goal of Saving the Princess, are of no use if the players decide that's not what they want to do that session after all, or grab a thread headed in another direction.

In others the opposite is true, many new indie games I've read specifically try to drive the story along with mechanics. In Fiasco a subtle little mechanic that I didn't find specifically mentioned in the book is that due to the finite number of dice, there is a finite number of scenes with which you have to tell the complete story. Stuff needs to happen in each scene, every one of them needs to count, because when they're gone, they're gone.  Those are some of the only mechanics in the game and I think they do a good job of ensuring that when used they bring the story closer to it's conclusion.

[Callan S.]

These games want a more free flow to how they are structured, having mechanics the specifically drive the characters towards the goal of Saving the Princess, are of no use if the players decide that's not what they want to do that session after all, or grab a thread headed in another direction.

Well, what some games have is a fill in the blank mechanic. Like a made up example of possible mechanics: say the players shoot off in a direction of fighting pirates, then say the rules are to write that down on a card, then some mechanics deal with the progress toward that goal. Could even have multiple cards, if they keep switching. I think the game 'capes' works like that quite a bit.

Just something to consider - to me, I find that as a player I'm dealing with mechanics which are pretty much busy work and have nothing to do with the big important thing and what happens in regard to it. Basically a set of combat mechanics makes me feel either stifled or I feel the big important thing really doesn't matter since I can't do a thing about it (heh, bit of a real life parralel there...)

[D.R. Clifford]

Wait, what?
If I were to tell you, "I'm going to design a new line of motorcycles. Though, mind you, I've never read any schematics for existing designs, nor have I ever ridden one, nor do I intend to, but I have heard of them." what would you say to me?
I have played a couple diceless systems, and read quiet a few more, specifically because I wanted to build one. Here's a professionally built free one called Active Exploits. http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=92
You may notice it's free because it's presented here as a generic system. If you want a game that does something specific you'll have to pay for it.
Here's another, somewhat sketchier one, called Fiat. It's got some good ideas in and it is also very free.
http://fantasyheartbreak.pbworks.com/w/page/19608530/FiatDiceless

Here are my notes on playing/designing diceless systems.
1. Your players will never fail a test. Well, that is to say, unless you hide the target number form them, and then they'll be doubly upset and with you specifically when it doesn't pan out. So why don't they ever fail? Because if they decide the karma cost of a thing is to high, they simply will not do that thing. This can be a problem because attempting something and stumbling is an important part of telling a good story.

2. Players can get a little fidgety and detached without some physical artifact to manipulate. I used to despise dice before I tried playing without them. Now I realize the real purpose of dice is not, in truth, to add a sense of uncertainty (though that is something they do). They give the player a lever to pull.
It gives a tactile feedback. The players feel engaged because in order to perform an imagined action, they must perform a real one.
There's a reason fortunetellers roll bones, play cards, and poke at ashes. It lends legitimacy to the crap they're making up. Some goes for roleplayers.

As for what you've written so far.
1. Generic systems
The longer and harder you work on a generic system the less functional it will be. You force the GM/Players to spend a lot of time either cutting out fat, or making things from scratch. I'd recommend at least having something specific in mind initially. If that works out then you can strip bare and sell the skeleton at a discount. Or give it away as a promotional offer, like Active Exploits and a mess of other things do.

2. Fight some more why don't you.
Whatever else you want this system to do you clearly want the players to bust some heads. I notice dice are only really used for damage. Meaning when the game starts, the players are going to see all those interactive artifacts laying around that they only get to touch then they successfully maul someone. What was that old saying about everything looking like a nail?
If your main goal is that of a brutality simulator why waste space with all this auxiliary? Why not tie secondary functions into your important(combat) stats. Ex: Players can use their Defense rating to manipulate people in a social situation, their Range attack rating to recall information/solve puzzles, their Maneuver rating in tests of speed and agility, and their Melee attack rating for feats of might.
I have some other suggestions but they fit more under my next point.

3. Karma pool
You got a lot of different kinds of currency running around in here.
You've got skill points (non-combat only), action points (combat only), fate points (skill points but super), and inspiration points (mentioned on page one, then forgotten). I'd recommend taking a look at Lady Blackbird (which is also free incidentally). http://www.onesevendesign.com/ladyblackbird/
It has a really great example of how to manage a resource pool and tie it into actual RP. Using lady blackbirds Refresh Scene mechanic you can feel free to just go ahead and make that combat sim you want without the needless baggage of an adventuring skill system.

4. Damage
I see you like FATE's stress boxes. Problem though, how do you define "[taking] a condition". A condition is described as "a temporary penalty" and nothing else is said. There doesn't seem to be a place for them on the character sheet either. Also, it looks like you'll have to get through a hell of a lot of boxes to impose something a meager as a "temporary penalty".  How exactly do you see a fight ending?

[SamSlayde]

Wow, thanks so much for responding! I really appreciate you taking the time to read what I have and write up a good bit of feedback.

Wait, what?
If I were to tell you, "I'm going to design a new line of motorcycles. Though, mind you, I've never read any schematics for existing designs, nor have I ever ridden one, nor do I intend to, but I have heard of them." what would you say to me?

Haha, I'd say "That's dangerous man, Motorcycles take lives!"

Seriously though, I get your shock, it does sound off doesn't it?  I just put that in there just to make sure no-one mistook this as the culmination of any kind of research or real work having been done. Thanks for the links to some free games I'll take a look.
I didn't do any research at the time, I just didn't want to, I had a relatively clear vision of what I was after and I wanted to get that out first. I didn't write this because I really wanted to make a near dice-less RPG, I wrote it because I noticed a few things over the past few weeks and wanted to write a game as a response over the weekend.

Here are my notes on playing/designing diceless systems.
1. Your players will never fail a test. Well, that is to say, unless you hide the target number form them, and then they'll be doubly upset and with you specifically when it doesn't pan out. So why don't they ever fail? Because if they decide the karma cost of a thing is to high, they simply will not do that thing. This can be a problem because attempting something and stumbling is an important part of telling a good story.

2. Players can get a little fidgety and detached without some physical artifact to manipulate. I used to despise dice before I tried playing without them. Now I realize the real purpose of dice is not, in truth, to add a sense of uncertainty (though that is something they do). They give the player a lever to pull.
It gives a tactile feedback. The players feel engaged because in order to perform an imagined action, they must perform a real one.
There's a reason fortunetellers roll bones, play cards, and poke at ashes. It lends legitimacy to the crap they're making up. Some goes for roleplayers.

Thanks for the observations, this isn't really a problem with my current group so it's hard for me to judge. 

One of the things that made me want to make this system was running some Call of Cthulhu with them recently.  The first four hour session contained 1 or 2 rolls of the dice, the second was about the same, the third kicked in with some serious investigation so there were more rolls in that game, like 7.

For the most part I always was thinking "They have a good idea, they're looking in the right place, I'd like to just give it to them, but we've got these characters and stats and dice and stuff, we really should roll to determine it." so we always did, and for the first few sessions the response was often "oh yeah, the plastic bits, we need to use those don't we?", I usually got the impression they would have been fine not touching the dice all session.

I wanted to make something that would facilitate that, when needed they could just tell me a relevant number and I could just tell them if they succeeded, that simple.

As for what you've written so far.
1. Generic systems
The longer and harder you work on a generic system the less functional it will be. You force the GM/Players to spend a lot of time either cutting out fat, or making things from scratch. I'd recommend at least having something specific in mind initially. If that works out then you can strip bare and sell the skeleton at a discount. Or give it away as a promotional offer, like Active Exploits and a mess of other things do.

I agree, a sharper focus could help, but I don't intend to create a setting or anything like that.
I never intend for this to be sold, I'm making it purely for the fun of it, like a mental exercise I can share with people.
I'd like to release it under a creative commons so it's available to everyone for free.

2. Fight some more why don't you.
Whatever else you want this system to do you clearly want the players to bust some heads. I notice dice are only really used for damage. Meaning when the game starts, the players are going to see all those interactive artifacts laying around that they only get to touch then they successfully maul someone. What was that old saying about everything looking like a nail?
If your main goal is that of a brutality simulator why waste space with all this auxiliary? Why not tie secondary functions into your important(combat) stats. Ex: Players can use their Defense rating to manipulate people in a social situation, their Range attack rating to recall information/solve puzzles, their Maneuver rating in tests of speed and agility, and their Melee attack rating for feats of might.
I have some other suggestions but they fit more under my next point.

It's funny you should say that, looking at it I can see why you would say that; but it's not the case at all.
I created that combat system because I wanted there to BE a combat system different from the task resolution mechanic (slightly), that's solid(ish) and fun.
It does get a lot of page space doesn't it? and is right up front, but all that will change as I write more content and re-arrange the layout.  I also want to get the players rolling more dice, just not for success/failure determination. I was thinking about making Inspiration worth a d4 instead of just a static 1, and burning an action point could be worth a d6 as well, maybe d6+something.
Also the idea about secondary uses for combat abilities I like, and something of that nature is already intended, though only barely mentioned in the text.

3. Karma pool
You got a lot of different kinds of currency running around in here.
You've got skill points (non-combat only), action points (combat only), fate points (skill points but super), and inspiration points (mentioned on page one, then forgotten). I'd recommend taking a look at Lady Blackbird (which is also free incidentally). http://www.onesevendesign.com/ladyblackbird/
It has a really great example of how to manage a resource pool and tie it into actual RP. Using lady blackbirds Refresh Scene mechanic you can feel free to just go ahead and make that combat sim you want without the needless baggage of an adventuring skill system.

Sweet! I didn't know Lady Blackbird was free, I've heard rad stuff about it so I'll have to take a look, thanks!

It's true there's a lot of currency floating around, and that's intentional, I like the idea of different points with different values. I'll take a look at Blackbird and see if maybe it does something I like better.

4. Damage
I see you like FATE's stress boxes. Problem though, how do you define "[taking] a condition". A condition is described as "a temporary penalty" and nothing else is said. There doesn't seem to be a place for them on the character sheet either. Also, it looks like you'll have to get through a hell of a lot of boxes to impose something a meager as a "temporary penalty".  How exactly do you see a fight ending?

Good call, I haven't written the "Running/Playing This Game" section yet, and a lot of this kind stuff will be in there. I don't see anything specific happening at the end of a fight.  My ruling on consequences will be along the lines of: Do something that's appropriate for the game and the situation.  You got beaten up in a fist fight, maybe a club used? then you're KO'ed for an hour or so and beaten and brusied, for a few days you take -1 Agility for being swollen and sore, and -1 Social for being black & blue.  Got shot with a shotgun? You're likely dead, barring that (if the game is not meant to be killing PCs) you're definitely KO'ed for a day or two and taking some serious penalties (similar to above) for a few more.

They are in the top right box on the character sheet to the right of the Attributes, under skill points.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out, I'll post a new version next week I hope.