a game originally called: adventure in the land of Jan

[ssem]

I started writing a specific fantasy novel in a game world of my design back in the early 80s. this failed mostly to my lack of imagination, 90% English fluency (i have no first language) and my complete inability to describe and envision how people would act and react in certain situations. I also discovered, in my own opinion, that there was a lot of 'reality' based inconsistencies. I was trying to create a new reality and have all the events in the that world be consistent with my idea of what should happen and what shouldn't. so in the early 90s I decided to create a role-playing game that was designed purely for the main stories in that world in the hopes that if there was any doubt if something could happen, the rules of the game would decide. little did I know that most game designers had written stories based on their games already.
one of the gamers in a group i was in at that time when i first started creating the game listened to my description of the world and posted an advert of it on the groups forums as ... Adventures in the land of Jan, where an experienced party of heroes can get wiped out by a single rabbit.
twenty years have passed since then without me having anyone to help with the game design or play testing. I've creating a few hundred different game rules and either thrown them away or lost them. a gaming shop opened almost outside my house over a year ago and i tried advertise my game there and up until about October last year i have had less than no success.
a lot has happened since then. I feel more progress has been made in the last 6 months than the last 30 years. still no one has play tested any parts of my game and the rules aren't really existent as such though they are stabilising. I will freely admit to everyone that I rape and steal every possible rule from every game I find. I believe Dave Arneson and Ian? Livingstone are the only game designers to not have copied a single rule from anywhere else. then again I've only seen published games. I cannot comment on indie games that don't get sold in shops.
and I believe it would help the reader understand the rules I have if I state where I got them from. for example I recently used tunnels and trolls combat style ( copied by usagi yojimbo of fuzion games and pendragon of chaosium) to have one number for melee ability and that both opponents roll against each other and the highest roll hits and the other misses.
I found it great to use. a complete change from all the other game combat styles. but it wasn't what I really wanted so I have changed it. what game did I copy this time? every company in which their combat involves rolling a to hit against a target number would claim I copied them. so I will just say D&D (pre AD&D), the first role-playing game with that style. the core of my game rules try very hard to emulate the original D&D rules merged together with the unheard of Torg game by West End Games. together they form a traditional fantasy game with high heroics and cinematics capable of mixing fantasy with technology.

which brings me to my first question: I am looking for rules that grant various combat manoeuvres to any and every fighting style, I think some people call them katas. there are so many games that have manoeuvres for martial arts. but not kenjutsu or western weapon fighting. while I claim to rape all rules, these rules are converted into my system and are frequently completely unrecognisable as the original. I don't copy the rule, rather I decide how the rule can be translated into the game system. these combat manoeuvres can come from anywhere... LARP, RPGS, boardgames, computer games or maybe even a translation of real fighting styles converted onto paper.
Let me know if you have any suggestions or advice. I ask only one rule question to get the ball started. feel free to ask anything about my game or world. there's never anyone around at the gaming shop interested in discussing my game. they are only interested in playing or GM-ing published games

[Gregor Hutton]

Hello ssem

Welcome to the Forge!

I think this thread might be in the wrong forum (no worries, if it is a Moderator will move it), as it sounded more like Game Development to me,

Threads in Actual Play have the following rules and those in Game Development have these ones.

Anyway, I'd like to hear more about your game, do you have a document (even a rough or brief one) outlining the rules and procedures of play?

Cheers,
Gregor

edited to fix link format - RE

[ssem]

thanks Greg
I am completely new here. a veteran game designer and veteran just about anything to do with imagination referred me to this site. technology and the internet are difficult concepts for me and I had to ask friends how to use this site. it seemed that I was to introduce myself and game and wishes in this section before considering moving to the game development section which seemed to be for ready to play games.
at the moment I have very simple rules 'for my benefit' scribbled on various pieces of paper. this early design is mostly for my understanding and some of it would need to be translated for use by 'players'. I did start typing basic rules for understanding and comparison with other games and beginning a new character from scratch. but part of my comparisons involved The Better Universal Role-playing Game System (BURPS) my modification for GURPS and i immediately got side tracked typing the BURPS rules out, a game I hadn't touched in over 10 years, for people to know what i was talking about and how to use it with the GURPS game should they find it to their amusement.
I did spent half a week after that designing as much of my game, which I adventurously call Bunnies & Beasties, without any breaks or sleep for the game-convention at the game shop held on February 19th. In that 12 hour game I GMed players could design modern and futuristic characters as well as supers and typically all kinds of fantasy classes. I needed no special rules for modern and futuristic except a list of weapons. I was able to convert most of the powers from Champions the super heroic game by I.C.E. but I didn't have time to create rules for fantasy classes and their skill options. The game world I used on the day was Torg's earth. I am very loath to GM or create adventures in the world the game is meant to be designed for until I am ready and there are players/testers ready and willing to go through it fully and officially. The one time i was able to get a group of players to start the world's campaign for the books I had to stop it almost immediately due to what I consider extreme player error's.
To describe how the game rules affect game play...if you could ever find a copy or source explaining the Torg universe. that would help... I would at this genesis phase call the similar to basic dungeons and dragons for character design and choices of races classes and equipment. but I strive to have game play cinematic with many feats of heroism as found in Torg games. The game uses 2D10 for everything involving 'chance'. skill rolls, combat and damage, 'saving throws'. the majority of character abilities will be a simple (to complex) formula of stat bonus + skill rank added to 2D10 whenever they get used.
let me start converting paper to word document today. I probably wont finish so it could be sometime next week where i can move the word document to a google doc to send a link of some rules I've decided on so far.
and I may be known as Jan by all here as well as by all in the role-playing field globally.

[dreamborn]

Ssem, wrote "I started writing a specific fantasy novel in a game world of my design back in the early 80s. this failed mostly to my lack of imagination"
Dreamborn, "It didn't fail it was just put on the back-burner!  If it is a good idea for you its time will come."

Ssem, "one of the gamers in a group i was in at that time when i first started creating the game listened to my description of the world and posted an advert of it on the groups forums as ... Adventures in the land of Jan, where an experienced party of heroes can get wiped out by a single rabbit."
Dreamborn, "Don't take it too hard.  In my experience the online community can be very harsh, or supportive.  If you are behind it try to make it happen."

Ssem, "twenty years have passed since then without me having anyone to help with the game design or play testing. I've creating a few hundred different game rules and either thrown them away or lost them. a gaming shop opened almost outside my house over a year ago and i tried advertise my game there and up until about October last year i have had less than no success."
Dreamborn, "Yes I have experienced a similar situation also.  I wouldn't try to advertise your game solely at a brick and mortar store.  The internet is potentially your vehicle to advertise.  Also I would recommend volunteering to run your game at the local shop if they have that option."

Ssem, "I will freely admit to everyone that I rape and steal every possible rule from every game I find."
Dreamborn, "Be sure to give credit if your take it verbatim, otherwise it is plagiarism/copyright issues.  Also, remember what can and can not be patented.  It is the application/method used that is key.  You cant patent algorithms or a formula, you can only patent the enabling application as described in the claims.  Just make sure you don't violate copyright/plagiarism issues."

Ssem, "am looking for rules that grant various combat maneuvers to any and every fighting style, I think some people call them katas."
Dreamborn, "Every marital art has them, even western styles.  Look at De Silver's Paradoxs of Defense, written in 1600 AD.  The key here they are unique to the system.  Musashi, (arguably greatest swordsman ever) eventually came to the conclusion the best system is the system with no katas.  That is the way I have done it in my gaming system."

Good luck and welcome

Kent Krumvieda
www.dreamborn.com

[Gregor Hutton]

Thanks Jan

Yes, I'm familiar with TORG and other "MasterBook" games (I was looking through my boxed set of Shatterzone the other night) so I know where you are coming from.

Putting your ideas down in a Word/Google doc is a good idea. It gives a foundation that you and everyone else can refer to.

It's probably best to leave discussions of the system and what you want out of it until we have the Google doc. And take as much time as you need to get the doc together, there is no rush.

All the best,
Gregor

[ssem]

Greg- am hoping I will get what I can done by Monday latest. looks like we've been moved to the gaming forums. I thought I needed a link to the rules of my game to be allowed to post in this area. and as I need a minimum of 3 posts to send a tell to the moderators about the exact terms and conditions mentioned I didn't know how to proceed,

Kent-yes that gaming group overreacted to my description of the world. I've always had trouble trying to explain what's in my mind to others so that they can see what's there. as a result they didn't want to take the time to generate heroic characters who will die to anything cute and fluffy.
ever since the gaming shop, Chimera, opened. I've constantly offered to be a Gm there as well as ask around for play testers. It is a shop as a secondary purpose, and a store to host every non computer game that could be played at a table primarily.
indeed I make public where I get my rules ideas from. that is my way of honouring other game producers and I am constantly worried that some stuck up company will attack me for it. I ran a Rolemaster Game set in the world of Conan for a group of players who most were employees of the ultra hated games workshop. they noticed the map I had drawn for the game was on a hex sheet sold by games workshop and they half heartedly threatened to take me to court for using a games workshop product for a non games workshop game. I secret believe that my game system is Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition (nothing to do with the AD&D 1st to 4th editions owned by WotC) but I know it will only be in my heart and mind and I will never be able to even hint my system as being anything to do with the original D&D game.
the main reason I am trying to create combat manoeuvres for the game is that the world the game is based on is mostly high level manga style fantasy. I want characters (and players) from other main stream fantasy games to 'appear' in that world and feel bland and colourless compared to warriors of that world. sort of the experience a western medieval man at arms would feel if he were to visit a Chanbarra saturated orient. The alternative combat moves which anyone can try in my game aren't enough to show this high skilled flowery melee.
but as Greg said, first things first, create a link to some makeshift rules before getting into a heated discussion. (Heh musashi, I have the stats of miyamoto usagi in my system for comparison )

[dreamborn]

Greg wrote, "gaming group overreacted to my description of the world. I've always had trouble trying to explain what's in my mind to others so that they can see what's there:"
Dreamborn, "That happens but take it as a datapoint, one of hopefully many.  But it is a feedback or sorts"

Greg wrote, "the main reason I am trying to create combat manoeuvres for the game is that the world the game is based on is mostly high level manga style fantasy."
Dreamborn, "Ah, I begin to see.  It may be hard to capture a visual in a gaming system, but I would like to be proven wrong.  I will eagerly wait then until monday to see the draft"

Miyamoto Musashi wrote, "Do nothing which is of no use.  The important thing in strategy is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions.  You should not have any special fondness for a particular weapon, or anything else, for that matter. Too much is the same as not enough. Without imitating anyone else, you should have as much weaponry as suits you.  The primary thing when you take a sword in your hands is your intention to cut the enemy, whatever the means. Whenever you parry, hit, spring, strike or touch the enemy's cutting sword, you must cut the enemy in the same movement. It is essential to attain this. If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able actually to cut him.  Know your enemy, know his sword."

[dreamborn]

Opps I meant to say Ssem, not greg.  Sorry greg.

[ssem]

just posting to say I'm still alive. copied 5 pages onto Word and that's taken over 6 constant hours to do.
Kent- my nasty side loves proving people wrong in everything. but I will endeavour to curb my evil nature most of time while posting here. however I believe almost nothing is impossible, especially where role-playing games are concerned. decades ago I let people, who claimed such and such wasn't possible, get me down and give up trying. many times since then I've seen the so called impossible and now translate a critics term of impossible, as meaning impossible for him, and not everyone else. a classic example. '' hey Paul, I want my game to compare values within normal human max and mins meaningfully, and also to handle super human ranges that compare with normal humans meaningfully too, without the rules breaking down on me like it does in so many other games (here I quote GURPS to him and rant briefly about how I hate Steve Jackson and his highly inferior game) can you help me design such a system?''
Paul replies '' what you ask for is impossible, you can't have normal human ranges together with super human ranges and make them fit together''
that chat happened fairly far down my gaming history and so while he response dismayed me, I didn't give up and take his claim as gospel. infact I can quote both Fuzion and Torg that do this more or less really well.
So I will be more than happy to prove you wrong, not in an antagonistic way, but rather in such a proving it will mean I have yet another game rule element for my system.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I am willing to spot you some time in getting your external document ready.

Best, Ron (moderator post, in response to the implied question)

[dreamborn]

Ssem, I am more than willing to wait.  It took me and my group years to get our thoughts down about Omnificent Role-playing System (ORS).  It is only now available for people to download.

"itimi non carborundum"!  (Don't let the bastards wear you down!)

Kent Krumvieda
www.dreamborn.com

[ssem]

thanks Ron.
I've done 8 hours of MS Word typing. was calling it a night and decided to move what I've done so far to google docs. the transfer succeeded. but the doc couldn't translate the very first table in my Word document. that's a massive mess on google but the rest of the document is fine. I'm a bit of an egotistical perfectionist and would hate for people to see the mess google docs made. is there another way to place my Word document on-line so that I can link what I've done so far?

[Gregor Hutton]

Hey Jan

You could try uploading to http://www.scribd.com/ or a free online hosting company (filedropper, mediafire, etc.).

All the best,
Gregor

[ssem]

Thanks Greg
was searching Google for an on-line solution. my browsing ability is very poor. I did find MS Word Web and that I was already a member as I've created a hotmail for my role-playing group. tried for a long time to send my document there and ended up copying and pasting the document. no luck...all the tables and headers were omitted. think I need office 2010 to be able to use it fully.
off to scribd dot com I go. wish me luck. I'm sure computer experts (kids) will be sighing and doing face-palms at my incompetence.

[ssem]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49616084/Bunnies-Beasties-Rules

downloaded today's work on scribd. now if only i can work out how to link the document. the text and tables viewed on that site are really really tiny. there's an option to download it to word doc. there's not enough rules to create characters yet. and about 40% of the entire rules are undecided an highly open to advice for alterations.
crossing fingers that I did the link right.
tomorrow I'll add more of the rules and if I don't finish what I know then hopefully I will sometime Monday.
I really appreciate your patience. This is the first time in a very long time anyone has 'sat down' with me to learn the rules. translating what I know and take for granted for another requires some rules adjustments.