Simple System rework

[horomancer]

After much down time I've gotten the gaming itch once again and have set about cobbling on my own system. Below is a link to the Googledoc that I'll update as I make progress. My prior trial run left me with a feeling that the mechanics could be more streamlined, though much thought has yielded few results. I feel the math behind the dice has much untapped potential, and trying to extract that potential without cumbersome math is proving challenging. It may be as simple as poor presentation on my part, possibly adding steps needlessly, so I've ripped out everything but the core skill check rule and will approach the interpreting of its result from the ad hoc rule set.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jYSIdP6lqggdYLTfjqU22ka5efXzXSToOXEHpcoygVY/edit?hl=en&authkey=CKj5q5QL

[Paul Czege]

Hey,

So, when you say "[m]iscellaneous modifiers can be added based on narration and setting specific powers, equipment, or subsystems," that's a factor in addition to STAT+SKILL+DICE?

You say "STATs can range from 1d2 to 1d12". What's the range on SKILLs?

Paul

[Ar Kayon]

What is the rationale behind using a step-die scheme for stats rather than a static number?

[ssem]

sorry if i offend anyone by commenting on the posts without actually taking a look at the game.
earthdawn, deadlands and alternity are games ive played that use different dice for stats and skills. perhaps you can take a look at them for ideas and such...

Jan the sidetracking buttinski

[horomancer]

The miscellaneous modifiers can be a wide range of adjustments to the STAT+SKILL+DICE combo and will be a product of the ad hoc rules. it could be something like a straight +N to the roll for some sorta awesome item that helps you perform a task to 'omit SKILL' from the roll do to some narration in game. I figured some rules and modifiers won't fit in all types of play or settings, so coming up with different ones that are small and to the point would make hammering out a good system easier.

I tried STATs as a straight integer last go around (range of -2 to +3). It worked, but it felt...stale. In that iteration you rolled 3d6 for DICE then add the value of SKILL and STAT. With stepped dice, a character can do just as poorly with a high stat, as another character could with a low stat, which i feel is realistic. A higher STAT now can generate +2 more on a roll per step rather than +1 with an integer, but the average roll is still going to be +1 over the next step for a large number group. Also, with making the STAT a die i go from adding 5 numbers (3 DICE 1 SKILL and 1 STAT) to 4 numbers (2 DICE 1 SKILL and 1 STAT) which tiddies things up a bit.
Also with the fumble mechanic, lower STATs = more fumbles than higher STATs, so high STATs can insulate you to a certain extent from really bad outcomes. It also makes dumping one of the STATs to min max more problematic since you will then be more likely to really screw up.
Lots of aspects i feel mimic reality better through a change that requires less math.

Also, skill range will most likely go from 0 to 10. If you think of an 'easy' task as something an unskilled average joe has  50% chance of success, then the easy DC would be 10. 50% of the time when you roll 3d6 you get an 11 or higher. I figure the exact numbers will be easier to tweek after i get some more rules

[Ar Kayon]

To clarify, it seems peculiar that Mr. Olympia could roll the same strength check as a 9 year old girl.

[horomancer]

You're touching an example of different magnitudes going head to head, which is a problem I'm working on. The example of a child and an adult is little different than that of a human and, say, an Ogre that might crop up in a fantasy setting. It could be a very weak Ogre as far as Ogres (d4) but still overpower a human physically with no contest.
I don't have a good solution at this time for how to bridge this gap.  The best solution I have is a tiering mechanism, so stats in the same tier can be used against each other, but anytime two different tiers are opposed the higher wins. I don't like that idea but it gets many things settled very quickly. It also has the benefit of keeping the dice range and numbers used small.

A more proper comparison would be Mr Olympia vs Couchpotato in test of physical ability, but that would largely imply how skilled they are in any given challenge. The point being that Mr. Olympia is strong not just because he has a d12 stat, but because he also has a large Athletic skill and possibly other adjustments based on what rules I have yet to cook up. Having a higher stat in this game isn't meant to be the same as having a higher stat in STR or DEX like in many games that follow the stat/skill combo.

[Ari Black]

You might consider a different approach. You set the standard DC for all task, something high enough to always be challenging but low enough that it's still possible. In your system all rolls are 2d6 + STAT(1d2 - 1d12) + SKILL. My suggestion is that SKILL plays a different role in your mechanic so the new roll would be 2d6 + STAT(1d2 - 1d12). The average roll on 2d6 is 7, so let's say the standard DC is 9. This will make rolls for the 1d2 STATs pretty hard, but that seems to be the point.

Now, instead of SKILL being a modifier, it actually represents different tiers of DC. So you have multiple tiers in a SKILL that show different levels of DC for different tasks. If you're not "trained" in the skill, you're going to be rolling the standard DC with your whichever DICE+STAT combination is deemed appropriate. This means that rolls now look like this (from your doc):

Untrained challenges
SKILL+DICE vs STANDARD-DC

Trained challenges
SKILL+DICE vs STAT-DC

Now I have to address dynamic, and by this I think you mean opposed, challenges. For this, I suggest that both participants roll as if they were making a normal challenge (trained/untrained) and compare not the values but the fail/succeed. So, for the example of Weak Ogre (BODY 1d4) vs. Strong Warrior (BODY 1d8), the Ogre could have a SKILL "Bashing humans into paste with my big club" at the lowest possible DC tier. If the Warrior succeeds and the Ogre doesn't, then the Warrior does damage or whatever the winning result is. If the Ogre succeeds and the Warrior does, then the Warrior is pate or what have you. You will get situations where they both win, causing a stalemate, and that happens in challenges, but someone will prevail.

[horomancer]

Untrained challenges
SKILL+DICE vs STANDARD-DC

Trained challenges
SKILL+DICE vs STAT-DC

Did you write that down proper? I thought the idea was STATs + DICE vs a DC modified by SKILL.
Lets have a numerical example so i can wrap my head around this better. Currently an easy DC is 10 so an average guy doing something with no prior experience is 1d6+2d6+0 vs 10. Same guy doing something he is very skilled in (we'll say a skill of 5) doing an easy task (DC 10) would now be 1d6+2d6+5 vs 10
The probability for success for both scenarios is 50% and 95.37% respectively.
For reference a DC of 10 has the following probability of success for straight STAT rolls
1d2- 22.22%
1d4- 36.11%
1d6- 50%
1d8- 61.11%
1d10- 68.89%
1d12- 74.07%

How would your idea effect the rolls numerically?

[Ari Black]

Untrained challenges
SKILL+DICE vs STANDARD-DC

Trained challenges
SKILL+DICE vs STAT-DC

Did you write that down proper? I thought the idea was STATs + DICE vs a DC modified by SKILL.
Lets have a numerical example so i can wrap my head around this better. Currently an easy DC is 10 so an average guy doing something with no prior experience is 1d6+2d6+0 vs 10. Same guy doing something he is very skilled in (we'll say a skill of 5) doing an easy task (DC 10) would now be 1d6+2d6+5 vs 10
The probability for success for both scenarios is 50% and 95.37% respectively.
For reference a DC of 10 has the following probability of success for straight STAT rolls
1d2- 22.22%
1d4- 36.11%
1d6- 50%
1d8- 61.11%
1d10- 68.89%
1d12- 74.07%

How would your idea effect the rolls numerically?

You're absolutely right, I wrote that wrong. It should have been STAT+DICE vs STANDARD-DC and STAT+DICE vs SKILL-DC. So the way it would work in your scenario is:

The standard DC would be 9. I'm assuming a meet-or-beat system here. So, let's use an average guy with a Body stat of 1d2(I'd call that average). So the guy doing something that was Body based (let's say boxing) would have the following roll:

STAT(1d2) + DICE(2d6) vs DC(9) = That's 50% chance of a success (I'm using http://anydice.com/ because I'm terrible at probability)

Take a similar guy with a Body (1d2) but who's been trained in boxing would have this roll:

STAT(1d2) + DICE(2d6) vs DC(7) = That's about a 78% chance of success.

If you had an actual boxing match, the untrained guy would still have 50/50 odds of landing a punch, and the trained guy would still have a 22% chance of missing, but they'd be aligned based on their skill level.

[horomancer]

I fail to see how that differs mathematically from what i had before. If i'm reading you correctly, you are suggesting I have the SKILL subtract from the DC. That would be no different than adding it to the dice rolled. I do see how having both character roll against a static DC rather than each others own roll could be beneficial, but I would have to play around some with the numbers to see how well it works.

[Ari Black]

I fail to see how that differs mathematically from what i had before. If i'm reading you correctly, you are suggesting I have the SKILL subtract from the DC. That would be no different than adding it to the dice rolled. I do see how having both character roll against a static DC rather than each others own roll could be beneficial, but I would have to play around some with the numbers to see how well it works.

Besides bringing the standard DC down by 1 initially, it doesn't differ mathematically at all. Psychologically, however, it differs quite a bit. The less work each roll is, the less imposing using a system becomes. As well, since the players will be able to see the DC they're rolling against dropping, it could encourage them to embody the confidence of someone who is trained in that skill in their roleplay.

The psychological impact of a mechanic is important to play experience. For example, I've found that, even though the odds are very close, players respond more calmly to failures of rolls in the Storyteller multi D10 system as compared to D&D's single D20. Is this a rational response, not really. But they seem to be able to more easily accept a failure with a roll of multiple dice than they can a failure of a single die roll.

[horomancer]

Noted. This presentation also lends itself to much more 'behind the shield' kinda work, where the GM just spits out the pass/fail results.

Still have the problem of different magnitudes going against each other. What is irksome is the problem only arises during certain challenges. Back to that ogre/human example, a very capable fighter could go toe to toe with the Ogre and rely on being quicker to avoid being overwhelmed by the ogre's greater size and strength. So just saying 'all checks made with the BODY STAT are auto fail' ain't gona cut it. A good point for those systems that break up physical characteristics into multiple stats.
It boils down to having front end rules, something that modifies the stats, or back end rules, like 'traits' or 'attributes' to set up some guide lines.
I think front end would be better, as different magnitudes of stats happen all the time in fantasy and scifi settings. Hell, even mundane settings have large beast that can be brought into play that would generate this same confusion.

[Ari Black]

It boils down to having front end rules, something that modifies the stats, or back end rules, like 'traits' or 'attributes' to set up some guide lines.
I think front end would be better, as different magnitudes of stats happen all the time in fantasy and scifi settings. Hell, even mundane settings have large beast that can be brought into play that would generate this same confusion.

I'm still a little confused about this "different magnitudes" situation. Can you give me an example with the scenario and rolls so I can try to see the problem better?

[horomancer]

That's the thing. It's hard to express it in rolls!

Lets say you got Batman and Superman arm-wrestling. Batman is ment to be the ultimate human an could be represnted with solid 1d12 STATs and plenty of skill points, but there isn't really a contest in this situation as Superman by default is on a completely different level than Batman in terms of physical ability. Trying to apply the current structure would result in either some very large dice for Superman's Stats, multiple dice, or very very high SKILL numbers. None of that is very satisfying in my opinion.
The current rules can work for either character Batman or Superman, since the numerical values can mean different things (e.g. Batman tries to pick up a large badguy and throw him, Superman tries to Pick up a train and throw it. Both could be defined as DC 10 respectively) but it's when it has to function for both of them that there is trouble.

Body is the most susceptible to this kind of problem, as Mind and Spirit are hard to define and pin down with numbers anyways.