Copyright Question

[Keith Senkowski]

When I send in my work for copyright protection, which form do I send it in with?  I noticed that Form TX is for published and unpublished nondramatic literary works but Form VA is for published and unpublished works of the visual arts (pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works, including architectural works).  Since I have a whole bunch of art in the book, which one is it?  Like David Hedison said in the Fly, "Help Meeee!"

Keith

[greyorm]

It's up to the artist of the images to provide his own copyright protection for those images. You're trying to copyright text, so you use the one for text.

If you also created the images, I'm guessing you would need to file a seperate application for copyright of those. But your best bet is to go talk to a copyright attorney.

[ethan_greer]

Why would you ask us instead of checking with the US Copyright board, or whatever to legal authority happens to be? All we can do is flail our arms about and offer opinions and anecdotes, which aren't helpful when you need legal specifics.

[Keith Senkowski]

I asked because:

a) The US Copyright Office website is rather vague concerning works that contain both graphics and text.

b) I figured that since several people here have actually published their games they might be able to let me know what they did.

c) In this case I really don't need to talk to a lawyer since people that have already published would have to copyright their material and could simply say, "Choice A is what you need to do."

Keith

[Lxndr]

Copyright exists regardless of registering it; registering it has certain legal advantages I'm sure, but not ones I can speak to.  I didn't register Fastlane for copyright, nor Snowball - they are copywrought (copyritten?) solely by dint of my being its creator.

In other words, assuming that some of us who be "published" are also people who've done copyright paperwork isn't really a good assumption.

[Peter Hollinghurst]

I dont know to what extent it is the same in different countries, but one of the core points of copyright is that of proof. Your rights exist regardless of registering anything I think-so registering is purely a method of obtaining prior proof in case of a legal challenge to your copyrights. In the UK you can obtain exactly the same benefit by sealing a copy of your work in an envelope/package and posting it to your legal representitive to be held unopened in case it is needed, with the postal date acting as the date of 'registering' your copyright. You could probably also use a similiar method with it posted to anyone, so long as they can be trusted to keep it unopened.

Your rights are always there-its proving them that can be hard.

[Valamir]

The only thing registering with the government (US) and sending a copy to the Library of Congress (mandatory with registration) gets you is....the right to sue.

So, the situation you have is:

1) yes, everything you write is protected by copyright just because you wrote it.

2) If someone violates your copy right you can sue them...BUT you can't sue them unless you're registered.  So if you're not registered you can't sue someone for violation.

3) You CAN register after the fact.  i.e. you have a copyright automatically, someone violates it, THEN you go through the trouble of registering so you can sue.

4) BUT if you register after the fact, you can only collect actual damages.  In order to collect putative damages or court costs / legal fees you have to have registered right from the beginning.


Its bizarre, but there you go.

[ethan_greer]

I asked because:

a) The US Copyright Office website is rather vague concerning works that contain both graphics and text.

b) I figured that since several people here have actually published their games they might be able to let me know what they did.

c) In this case I really don't need to talk to a lawyer since people that have already published would have to copyright their material and could simply say, "Choice A is what you need to do."

Fair enough. Those are all decent reasons. I'm questioning the legitimacy or necessity of my grilling you about it in the first place, but thanks for responding.

Peace,
-e.

[greyorm]

by sealing a copy of your work in an envelope/package and posting it to your legal representitive to be held unopened in case it is needed, with the postal date acting as the date of 'registering' your copyright. You could probably also use a similiar method with it posted to anyone, so long as they can be trusted to keep it unopened.

This method is often referred to as the "The Poor Man's Copyright." However, it is a prevalent copyright myth, and incorrect.

The only thing this may do is establish a date for you. It does not act as a "registration" date for copyright, it cannot be used in court and will not help you sue for damages (actual or statutory). All it might do for you is help establish a date of publication for you in the case of another person claiming the work is theirs, but that would be up to the judge (and many judges throw such 'evidence' out because the postmark proves the date of the envelope, but not the date of the contents -- even unopened!).

(See, Bob, this is why it was said we aren't the people to talk to about this.)

[Valamir]

This method is often referred to as the "The Poor Man's Copyright." However, it is a prevalent copyright myth, and incorrect.

Peter's in the UK.  It may actually work over there...

[Keith Senkowski]

I understand the legal issues involved in gettting something copyrighted (is that a word?).  They why and what, what, are not really a mystery to me.  It's weird but not a mystery.  I'm just confused on which form I need to send in.  Because an RPG contains artwork it seems to fall into two categories.  Since no one else here seems to have bothered to get their stuff copyrighted (again with this word) with the Man I'll report back once I find out the what and why for of which form you need.  Thanks for the feedback.

Oh, and the name is Keith.  Bob Goat is just the mascot.

[Peter Hollinghurst]

It is indeed very different registering copyright in the UK. We have no formal registration requirement here at all. Copyright automatically applies to a work produced (not even published) in the UK without any formal process-one can register a work at stationers hall, and the unopened envelope method is also recognised-but both merely act as possible proof of a date in case of legal proceedings. Note that 'proof' is exactly what any legal challenge over copyright looks at-the courts assess if the proof is adequate or not when they assess the copyright claim-so essentially here in the UK you really have no definate proof other than what a court decides to accept as such. Which is why placing the envelope with a solicitor or bank helps-they act as a further evidence of date of the envelope.
In effect here in the UK copyright is ultimately all about how good your legal representitive is. Which is why even if you are the real copyright holder you can technically end up loosing it to a big company with better lawyers.
In the USA it is different due to the requirement of registering a work. I believe you may also be required to deposit two complete copies of a work with the copyright office within three months even if you do not register it-failure to do so may cause legal problems later though it does not remove your copyrights. Since this applies to sound recordings as well as texts, I would assume it also applies to electronic documents. You should deffinately check this out because failure to comply could bring financial consequences (if I understand it correctly).
Ultimately, while the basic principle of copyright is fairly straightforward internationally, in practice it is pretty complex, and if you have doubts over any issues of copyright you should either get a legal expert in its advice, or seek advice or further information from advisory bodies and/or associations. Many books on writing and art for professional publication give advice on copyright as well and could be a good starting point for at least an overview (for instance 'the writers and artists yearbook' here in the UK gives information on international, EU, UK and US copyrights).
So far as I understand it, the key aspect whereever you are is that protecting your copyright is ultimately about what may (note 'may' not 'will') be accepted as legal proof by a court-if you get into a copyright challenge it seems to always be about what happens in court-so you are balancing legal registration requirements against potential future proofs.
Establish what is a legal requirement in your country and adhere to that at least first.

[Ben O'Neal]

Man, we have it good in Australia. According to the Copyright Council Website, I don't have to do squat to have my work protected. I don't even have to tell people I own the copyright! (does anyone ever get that thing where a word looks completely wrong, like there is no way it is a real word? I'm getting that right now with "own".... that's one freakily spelled word).

I was sorta weirded out by some of those US laws that Ralph posted... they seemed retarded: "You don't have to register to copyright, but you do if you want copyright". That whole thing with the unopened envelope was also quite crazy.

Oh well, at least I live in Australia.

-Ben

[greyorm]

Consider me informed. Thanks, Peter.

In the USA it is different due to the requirement of registering a work. I believe you may also be required to deposit two complete copies of a work with the copyright office within three months even if you do not register it-failure to do so may cause legal problems later though it does not remove your copyrights.

Registration is not required to obtain copyright, it is only required if you want to sue someone for actual and statutory damages regarding the copyright. It's $30 to register.

Interestingly, I had no idea about the required deposits. I found a whole page about it on the web, though: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ07d.html Note: even though deposit is mandatory, there are no legal penalties if you do not deposit your work, unless a demand is made that you do so and you fail to comply. The site notes not everything is considered depositable, and exceptions exist for various categories:
"Because many deposits are not suitable for addition to the Library of Congress collections or for use in national library programs, the Copyright Office has issued regulations that exempt certain categories of works entirely from the mandatory deposit requirements. These regulations also reduce the required number of copies or phonorecords from two to one for certain other categories. For further information about these regulations, see Part 202 of 37 CFR, Chapter II, or contact the Copyright Office."

[Erick Wujcik]

This method is often referred to as the "The Poor Man's Copyright." However, it is a prevalent copyright myth, and incorrect.

Peter's in the UK.  It may actually work over there...

The UK, like the US, are signatories to the Berne Convention. Likewise, both nations are members of the WTO (World Trade Organization), and are bound by that organization's Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPs).

While some details vary from country to country (such as the force of Droit Moral; or the 'effort' required to secure a copyright; employers may secure copyright of an employee's work in the US, but not in some other places), the 'mail a copy to yourself' myth is no more a reality in the UK than elsewhere.

Erick