[FADE] Prelimary concepts & riffy early work

[Bailywolf]

I've had this thing klunking around in my head for a couple of years now.

A game of modern magicians- seers- who by nature of their awareness of magic are able to work miracles through it.  Based on some of my reading on the social role of the shaman in a community as one who is neither wholly part of the mundane world nor of the spiritual otherworld.  Someone who intercedes for people in spiritual matters, but who also intercedes in mundane situations for supernatural agencies.  An occult middle-man, caught in the middle of all things.  Focus too much on the mundane, and loose the magic- no more Sight, and soon you forget what wonder is.  Focus too much on the magic, and you loose the mundane- nothing keeps you anchored in the world, and you just Fade away.

I've been butting my head against the mechanics for ages, and trying to boil the premise down to its essentials so I could reinforce it mechanically to encourage a certain kind of play.  

Of late, I was somewhat inspired by the dead simple designs behind several little gems I have turned up (Zak Arntson's Deplorable and D. Vincent Baker's Hungry, Desperate, and Alone), and by Ron's most excellent Trollbabe I felt like I needed to just jettison all the old junk I was trying to work into the thing, and focus on what really matters to the thing- the conflict between the practical and the wondrous, and the essential importance of both.  Rather than try and shoehorn these concepts into a generic system idea, I'm going to start with these ideas and build a system from them.

So, at the core of characters in Fade there are two core scores from which everything else is derived, representing the character's Mundane nature and his Magical nature.  These can fluctuate through play, and such changes affect the small nest of derived scores below it.  Right now, I'm calling them Identity and Mystery, and at chargen 11 points are divided between them (with neither being lower than 3)

For task resolution, I'm thinking you roll under the appropriate score on a d10, and the value you roll is your Success.  Roll over, and the difference in the score and the roll is the Failure.  These are used in several ways, but more on this in another thread, but in addition to determining successes and failures, these also determine how much Trouble you generate with your magic, how much you deal with using mundane means, and when your scores shift, one dropping and the other rising.  Trouble is what happens when you use magic too often or too well, and it complicates you life and the lives around you.  Dealing with your own trouble or laying it on some hapless victim is the only difference in "white" and "back" magic.  

Beneath each score, you have a number of traits equal to the score.  There are three types of Trait per Score, and each one has a slightly different mechanical twist, scope, and possible uses.  Generally though, when you have a Trait relevant to the current conflict, you get a raise to the relevant score.  Here are the traits, and the basics on how they work:

Identity
Experience:  A skill, aptitude, or talent representing the ability to do something.  Generally broad enough to allow you to get a job based on your Experience.  Example might include Handyman, Surgeon, Made Man, Army Brat, Went to College, or Kegmiester.  Anything you want, if you could possible peruse some kind of life based on it.  Anytime your Experience is relevant to a conflict, add 1 to your Identity.  This bonus stacks with any other kind of Trait raises.  An Experience can be used as often as it is applicable.

Conviction:  a strong belief, emotion, or code which gives you strength and resolve in some situations.  A Conviction can stack with other Traits, but is not as broadly applicable as Experience traits- you can only use your Conviction when the outcome of a conflict is really significant to your Conviction.  When you act out of conviction, add 2 to your Identity score.  A Conviction can be used this way at most once per session.

Relationship:  an emotional tie to another person.  It need not be positive, but must be significant to your character and your sense of who you are.  The relationship must serve to define you in some way to be strong enough to grant a bonus.  When your actions are strongly motivated by the Relationship, and the outcome of the conflict will strongly affect it, add 3 to your identity.    A Relationship can be used this way at most once per story.  

Mystery
Art:  the Trait represents a focused area of personal magic- a signature style or miracle.  This can be anything from telekinesis to the animation of living plants to manifesting people's memories as physical constructs.  Be creative.  An Art is limited in scope, however.  Arts can't be used on anything you can't clearly and directly sense.  They can affect only a small number of individuals at a time (up to your Mystery score), or an area no larger than a modest living room.  Also, you must concentrate to maintain any primary effects of the Art, taking a -2 penalty to your Scores while doing so.  Secondary affects of your Art remain and are generally permanent- conjuring fire will result in burns and damage, even after the magical flames have vanished.  An Art grants a +3 bonus to Mystery, and can be used as often as desired, though each Blackjack you roll (exactly equal to your score, with all modifiers) gives you a point of Trouble, as do any failures greater than 3 or any successes greater than 8.  

Arcana:  this trait represents an externalized manifestations of the Mystery- a magical ally, a place of power, a mystical artifact, or something similar.  Arcana have the advantage of being able to modify Identity rolls with their bonus in addition to Mystery rolls.  Further, Arcana can operate independently of you, acting beyond your senses and sometimes on their own initiative (as often happens when you're In Trouble).  Arcana can affect up to three times your Mystery in individuals, or an area the size of a nice house.  They can operate beyond your senses, and grant a +5 bonus to either Mystery or to Identity (if relevant).  Any Blackjack gives you 3 Trouble however, and any failure greater than 2 or success greater than 6 gives you a point of Trouble.

Patron:  The ultimate power of a seer is the ability to call upon one or more of the awesome powers of the Otherworld- gods, demons, Old Ones, great spirits, faerie lords, or stranger things still.  The Mystery encompasses all possibilities, and the beings like Patrons are awesome things.  A Patron can grant a +10 bonus to Mystery if invoked, but doing so immediately gives the shaman Trouble equal to the value of the success.  In addition, the shaman immediately gets into Trouble, as the Patron requires some service of the Shaman in payment for its boon.    

Generally, when Trouble exceeds a character's Identity, he's In Trouble.  The GM knocks his Trouble total down to zero, and using a system I'll detail later on, builds a Crisis.  A related rule would allow anyone sitting around the table to anney up their own Trouble total and add it to the first, making themselves part of the Crisis, and getting some input on how it unfolds.  The Crisis sets up the mechanics under a role-playing situation, and a Crisis always threatens an Identity trait.  If successfully resolved, the player gets to do some character redefinition (shift a score point from Mystery to Identity, change a Conviction or Relationship, broaden an Experience etc.).  Failure means the character looses that Trait, and a point of Identity shift to Mystery, and he gains a new Mystery trait.  Other characters can assist in dealing with the Crisis, but all must be cautious with using magic to resolve it- this can generate more Trouble which can further complicate things.  

I'm still working out some core details- I'm going for a conflict resolution thing, with a middle ground breadth of detail covered in a single roll.  Violence is just another conflict, which could resolve in the same two or three rolls as any other moderately complex situation.  

I need to find a counterbalance to the trouble-spiral: magic generates trouble, which reduces Identity, which makes it harder to get rid of Trouble etc.  One possibility is to add an opposed score- one which threatens Mystery and requires Magic to resolve.  

Nuts and bolts forthcoming.  

Any thoughts on this very early concept sketch?

-Ben

[Russell Collins]

I think I'm in a similar boat, trying to balance out a risk vs. reward system for a friend's project.

The concept of the Identity drain may be an important element in setting the tone of the game you want. Generally, a mechanic that enforces degeneration of a character is an element of a horror-themed game as opposed to an adventure game.

Take a look at your game world. Is horror going to be an element of nearly all the stories you would tell there? Are there many old masters of the shamanistic practices around? Or do they generally burn out young or stay low key to live past 40?

If you find that degeneration is important for establishing the tone, the danger of the power used and the life expectancy of a player character, then you need that downward spiral.

Most of the rest of what you've explained seems well thought out to me, at least at first blush. I like the inclusion of passions and relationships to resolution as well.

Also, think about how often you expect a die roll wll come up in a session. That will certainly influence the weight you attach to each roll. Since your traits are somewhat "generic" then you're probably shooting for a narrative game rather than a simulation, but I suppose the nuts and bolts will detail that out.

[Bailywolf]

I'm going for something sort of gamey and sort of narritivy here... perhaps some more on my basic thematics:


What I'm going for is something like the conflict between the joy of the mundane and the wonder of the magical... like the show Bewitched.

Both the magical and the mundane are valuable- mechanically and thematically- and the idea isn't to enforce a definite degeneration of Identity, but rather to make this something of a negative consequence.  The idea I want is that players will have to balance the two sides of their characters or they will loose the character- become too mundane, and you loose the mystery and forget the wonder of the magical world.  Become too magical, and you loose all connection with the mundane and you Fade away.

At either end of the spectrum, the result is the same- loss of character.

I need some system by which trouble can adversely affect either Identity or Magic...  the idea is that the trait that is threatened is the one you need to resolve the Trouble- success gives you the option of changing some things, but doesn't require it.  Failure means you must change and your focus shifts from one aspect to another.

This shift isn't bad or good- though it seem either way depending on what evolves out of play.  Ideally, it will be dramatic and interesting.  

Hmmmm...  

How about this- using magic to resolve mundane conflicts results in Trouble, and using mundane things to deal with magic results in trouble.  Cross-score actions are more effective but cause trouble.

When an event happens that kicks off a Crisis, it will threaten either Identity or Mystery, and the resolution of the Crisis will determine how the scores are shifted (if at all).  

Now... how to draw the line between the two realms of conflict?

Also, this will require some changes to the bonus and trouble accumulation for either score's traits.  

-B

[Valamir]

Some spontaneous thoughts:

1) is "Medium" rather than "Seer" a better term for who the characters are?  That was the first word that popped into my mind when you began describing them as a bridge between the magical and the mundane.

2) For resolution, consider a two die system like Shadows of Yesterday.  1 Die roll over/under systems tend to have a fairly high whiff factor to them.  Troll Babe turns this whiff factor into a desireable feature with the way it divvies up narration rights.  You will want something that accomplishes that, or else use a less whiff prone die mechanic I think.

3) Related to #2 and the idea of turning the Whiff into a feature, perhaps you can tie Trouble into the rerolls.  You try a mundane test, you roll Identity, you fail.  You can get a reroll on Mystery (using magic for a second chance at success) as many times as you want until you succeed...but each reroll gives you Trouble vs. your Identity (and vice-versa).  Trouble could have a number of features in the game, but one could be for the GM to force rerolls when you'd rather not.  For instance, the next time your involved in a magical activity, the Trouble vs. Identity you earned from your earlier activity now comes back to haunt you...perhaps in the form of the suspicious neighbor lady who comes over for a spot of tea just as some supernatural manifestation occurs.

4) If the scores are linked...what do you envision being the game effect (mechanically and imaginatively within the SIS) of losing Identity as Mystery increases or losing Mystery as Identity increases.  There are some obvious interpretations possible, but perhaps you've some thoughts beyond the obvious ones.

[Bailywolf]

Some spontaneous thoughts:

1) is "Medium" rather than "Seer" a better term for who the characters are?  That was the first word that popped into my mind when you began describing them as a bridge between the magical and the mundane.

2) For resolution, consider a two die system like Shadows of Yesterday.  1 Die roll over/under systems tend to have a fairly high whiff factor to them.  Troll Babe turns this whiff factor into a desireable feature with the way it divvies up narration rights.  You will want something that accomplishes that, or else use a less whiff prone die mechanic I think.

3) Related to #2 and the idea of turning the Whiff into a feature, perhaps you can tie Trouble into the rerolls.  You try a mundane test, you roll Identity, you fail.  You can get a reroll on Mystery (using magic for a second chance at success) as many times as you want until you succeed...but each reroll gives you Trouble vs. your Identity (and vice-versa).  Trouble could have a number of features in the game, but one could be for the GM to force rerolls when you'd rather not.  For instance, the next time your involved in a magical activity, the Trouble vs. Identity you earned from your earlier activity now comes back to haunt you...perhaps in the form of the suspicious neighbor lady who comes over for a spot of tea just as some supernatural manifestation occurs.

4) If the scores are linked...what do you envision being the game effect (mechanically and imaginatively within the SIS) of losing Identity as Mystery increases or losing Mystery as Identity increases.  There are some obvious interpretations possible, but perhaps you've some thoughts beyond the obvious ones.

I like 'medium' but (for me at least) it conjures the image of a plump old woman with lots of shawls dealing tarot cards and speaking with a fake Romanian accent.  I though to use different terms here and there, but 'seer' in general because this is what primarily sets them apart- they really see the hidden strange stuff lurking in the dark corners of the world, and it sees them.  The Mystery hides itself fairly well from the unsighted, and this is part of the underpinnings of Trouble- the magic has to works its way out somehow, and karmic grief for seers is a prety good way of grounding out extra possibility.  

The core resolution mechanic is one I'm still playing with.  I considered a tal-and-reroll thing, but I didn't want to rip off Trollbabe.  Buying rerolls with Trouble is actually a pretty damned nice idea though.  One feature of the "roll high, but under" blackjack thing was you get a numeric value as your output which can be used for all kinds of things.  Advantages and disadvantages all figure into the target before you roll the die, and the base value represents a 'crisis action'- how good you are when your hands are shaking from the stress and tension.  Going things in casual settings would earn a Advantage or two.  

But that cross-score trouble-for-reroll idea...  hmm...

You try and blast a shadow spider back into the basement where it belongs with your Mystery art of Baelfire, and you blow it you could then buy rerolls with Identity- coming up with novel mundane solutions for the problem that defied your magic...  persuade the spider to go... lure it out with a piece of cheese and trap it under a shoebox... or just squish it with your shoe.

The back-and-forth of Identity and Mystery is important to my concept, and the broader effectiveness of a ballanced character VS the focused effectiveness of a imballanced character.

A shift between the scores represents- mechanically- the loss of one Trait and the gain of another type of Trait in the other score.  It means you forget or loose something, but gain something else...or perhaps you gain something, and it replaces something else.  For example, a character who blows an Identity aspected Crisis and shifts a point from Identity to Mystery might literally be loosing a piece of himself- some esential skill or memory or relationship- and replacing it with some new strange magical power or connection.  Perhaps, after dealing with the crisis, he comes home and looks at his wife, and can't remember what it felt like to love her.  His Relationship trait with her is gone, and replaced with somethign else- perhaps the glossy black GTO he parked on the curb, the one he drove through the Hell of Burning Oil after he found the key to it in the murdered man's mouth.  A car that can drive through the Otherworld... but his wife?  Well, it was getting hard keeping her in the dark.  The work will be easier without her.  

In a pure mechanical sense- taking the tact you suggested- an imbalance increases the chances of a first-time success with one score and lowers it hard with the other... but it increases the chance of the first Trouble buy reroll being a success.  I'll have to play with the math to make sure there isn't an optimal level of imballance, and the three types of Trait will still provide different bonuses (and perhaps additional Trouble).  

For injuries, mental instability, and other longer-term but character-focused consequences of failure at certain conflicts (violence, for example) I'm simply using a damage/wound thing which totals to give a penalty to the scores.  These can be healed with time (and in-game action), but the whiffs get more likely with penalities to the score.  

I'm going to cook your suggestions this weekend, and see what comes out of the over.

Thanks!

-Ben

[Bailywolf]

I'm struggling with the resolution system right now, and on how I want Trouble to work, and how a Crisis arises.

OK, basically I have a d10 based roll-under-but-high blackjack style mechanic, and a basic score range of between 1 and 10.  Hard tasks (or tasks you are unsuited for, based on character concept and background) give a penality to this, while advantages give a bonus to this.  All modifers to a given situation are figured in on the front-end, and then the the results are extrapolated based on the outcome of the roll.  

The simplest example might be violence- say your Identity is 3, you have a handgun for +2, the other guy is armed only with a knife for +1, you have the "Ex-Cop" experience trait for +1, and you are defending your wife from an attacker, adding +3 for the relationship you have with her.    Total threshold of 10, and so the odds are so stacked in your favor anything you roll is going to be a success.  Roll a 10 and you get a Blackjack success (which would be even better).  You roll a 5.  

The other guy has an Identity of 5, he has a knife +1, is attacking your unarmed wife +1, and has the experience of "Slasher-killer" for an additional +1.  His total is 8, and he rolls a 4.  

Now what the hell do I do with these nice numbers?

I can generate a degree of success or failure with this system, or I can generate a "yes/no" success/fail.  It seems a shame to waste the numbers, but for the purposes of naration and author stance determination, it doesn't seem all that significant.  

I'd like somethig tidy, like Ron's very clean scene/conflict structure as seen in Trollbabe, but I don't want to rip that off.

Should NPC's have PC-style scores?  Or should they be represented as modifiers to PC score rolls?  I'm inclined to favor this secondary option for almost all non-player characters.  Give them a single number (which could modify PC rolls), and some situational bonuses or penalties to this check.  Simple conflicts would be resolved in a single roll, modified by the NPC's numbers.  Dramatic conflicts would be resolved in a series of rolls, modified in stages by the NPC's rolls, and by changing circumstances.  

You have an Identity of 4, and "Ex-Cop" trait for +1, and a "Sense of Justice" conviction for +2.  You are chasing a man you're convinced is a killer who escaped justice from the scene of a recent murder.  The killer has a score of 4, and the traits Slasher, Charming Devil, Flee the Scene, and a conviction that he is Superior to Women.  In any conflict which is based on his Traits, his full value of 4 acts as a penalty to PC score rolls.  For all other actions, half (or less) is the penality- in  sense, this refelcts the difficulty inherent in the situation the NPC represents.  As in Trollbabe, only the players roll dice.  

You are trying to chase this guy, so your target number is 7 minus his value of 4 (running away from the cops being pretty central to his masic mojo), for a target of 3.  Long odds.  You roll a 6, for a 3 point failure.  (what to do with this failure number?  Don't know yet)

Crap- he's going to get away...but...you are more than just an Ex-Cop.  You have a Mystery score of 7, and you call upon one of your Arcana- a spectral wolfhound that can smell the stench of evil.  This grants a +4 bonus to your Mystery score (using magic in the mundane world is more potent, but the reroll will give you 1 point of Trouble).  The killer knows nothing of magic and the Mystery, and only half his Value is subtracted from your score.  Your total is now 9, and you roll a success of 6 (and here, what do I do with this rolled value for a success?  Perhaps using it to triger a Crisis?).  Following the spectral hound, you race through the night to head off the killer as he exits an alleyway.  

Who describes success?  Failure?  Complications on either?  And what to do with the value of a success or a failure?

Hmmmm...

If the rolled success is a blackjack OR is also less than the other score's raw value, the player describes the success.

If the rolled success is greater than the other score, then the GM describes the success.

If the rolled failure is less than the other score's raw value, then the player describes the success.

If the rolled failure is greater than the other score's raw value, then the GM describes the success.

For character with fairly well ballanced scores, the player will describe successes more often, but for characters with unballanced scores, the player will describe failures more often.  

Perhaps a bit overcomplicated- needs further thought.  

Trouble can influence this perhaps- Trouble subtract from the other score on a success, and add to the value of a failure, making it less likely the player gets to describe a success or a failure...

A Crisis then isn't a bad thing, as it lets a player get rid of Trouble and gain back some narrative control...  

Hmmm....

Sorry about the extra riffing, but I'm still cooking this thing down.

-Ben

[Spooky Fanboy]

I can generate a degree of success or failure with this system, or I can generate a "yes/no" success/fail.  It seems a shame to waste the numbers, but for the purposes of naration and author stance determination, it doesn't seem all that significant.

To be honest, other than making a generic "chart of haplessness" for the players, I don't think it's all that important. OTOH, the amount of failure/success could be rolled over onto the next roll involving one of the relevant Traits as long as there's some narrative continuity, like in Sorcerer.  

Should NPC's have PC-style scores?  Or should they be represented as modifiers to PC score rolls?  I'm inclined to favor this secondary option for almost all non-player characters.  Give them a single number (which could modify PC rolls), and some situational bonuses or penalties to this check.

Gods, yes! Anything to simplify something that is essentially background to the most important people to the game: the players.  

You roll a 6, for a 3 point failure.  (what to do with this failure number?  Don't know yet)

Maybe at the end of a session or a story wrap-up, you roll a die for each side (Identity and Mystery)? For example, you add the highest margin of failure rolled during the story as a penalty to each roll.

Both fail: GM chooses which one loses a point to the other.

Identity/Mystery succeeds: The winner gets the point added, the loser drops a point.

Both succeed: Stasis, or player chooses the shift.

Trouble can influence this perhaps- Trouble subtract from the other score on a success, and add to the value of a failure, making it less likely the player gets to describe a success or a failure...

I'd definitely try to make Trouble something that pushes a character either way: towards magic all the way to losing touch with "the real world", or towards mundanity, so that the character loses the ability to do magic.

I'm guessing from what you've written that it's a magic-in-the-modern-world game, and that magic has the obligatory "shy-bladder syndrome" ("But I can't do it if people are watching!") to explain why most people don't acknowledge it's existence.  If so, it makes sense that those who can use magic are walking a tightrope, and that Trouble will try to push them one way or another, just so long as they can't stay between the worlds. But that's just a guess; maybe it would help to know what your theories are on what role magic plays in the world, so that we could better advise you on what mechanics would best represent being caught between two normally parallel forces.

A Crisis then isn't a bad thing, as it lets a player get rid of Trouble and gain back some narrative control...

Using a Crisis to equalize the pressure is definitely the way to go. It gets the players involved in making tough decisions, and lets the pressure from one side or the other bleed off.

[Bailywolf]

To be honest, other than making a generic "chart of haplessness" for the players, I don't think it's all that important. OTOH, the amount of failure/success could be rolled over onto the next roll involving one of the relevant Traits as long as there's some narrative continuity, like in Sorcerer.  

Maybe at the end of a session or a story wrap-up, you roll a die for each side (Identity and Mystery)? For example, you add the highest margin of failure rolled during the story as a penalty to each roll.

Both fail: GM chooses which one loses a point to the other.

Identity/Mystery succeeds: The winner gets the point added, the loser drops a point.

Both succeed: Stasis, or player chooses the shift.


I'd definitely try to make Trouble something that pushes a character either way: towards magic all the way to losing touch with "the real world", or towards mundanity, so that the character loses the ability to do magic.

I'm guessing from what you've written that it's a magic-in-the-modern-world game, and that magic has the obligatory "shy-bladder syndrome" ("But I can't do it if people are watching!") to explain why most people don't acknowledge it's existence.  If so, it makes sense that those who can use magic are walking a tightrope, and that Trouble will try to push them one way or another, just so long as they can't stay between the worlds. But that's just a guess; maybe it would help to know what your theories are on what role magic plays in the world, so that we could better advise you on what mechanics would best represent being caught between two normally parallel forces.

Using a Crisis to equalize the pressure is definitely the way to go. It gets the players involved in making tough decisions, and lets the pressure from one side or the other bleed off.

Background stuff- it isn't a 'shy magic' setting, but one with a handwavy 'most people can't perceive the magic around them' kind of thing.  They can believe in it, they can be subjected to its effects, but they can't really see it, and in the end will usually gloss it over, rationalize it, or forget it.  This is the key difference in a Seer and a normal bloke- they can't ignore it, and the realer the Magical becomes for them the less real the mundane becomes.  The divide between the World and the Otherworld is one of perception, and the shaman is the man who can see both worlds, and intercede in either for the inhabitants of the other.  

Basically, you can blow up a car with your magic in front of a hundred people then transform into a thirty-foot dragon and fly to Vegas for the weekend and most likely get away with it.  But Trouble represents the complications this can cause in your life.  Using magic to deal with mundane problems is more effective than using mundane means (and vis versa of course ), but more prone to cause you Trouble.

Identity is generally defined by a Background description, while Mystery by an Initiation description.

Smart says play it safe, and deal with mundane problems with mundane means...  but the temptation is there (and very real in a mechanical sense) to blow the lid off and kick ever problem in the arse with your magic.  Of course, this will get you into serious Trouble.  

Should the tipping point be stable, or should instability speed the process of becoming more unbalanced?  For example, should the value of the threatened score play into to determining whether the tip happens?  As a character falls further out of balance, the character would be more likely continue along this way... or should there always be an even-odds chance of the tip going in one direction or the other, with a run of bad (or good) luck swinging you further in one direction or the other?  

I'm inclined to the latter- the number of points of Trouble activated in a given Crisis determines how likely it is for a tip to occur, but which score is  threatened by the tip should perhaps be more random...  still though, perhaps not.  

Another possibility is to use Trouble as a score, and compare all rolls on the two primary scores against Trouble as well.  Roll under Trouble, and you knock off that number of points from the score, but it activates a Crisis with a value equal to the number of points, focused on the score you were rolling when the Crisis kicked off.  

For example, you've accumulated 5 Trouble, and you throw a 4 when trying to convince your boss to give you a raise.  This scores a Success off your Identity, but activates a four point Crisis.  Your boss says, "Alright, I think you're about ready for that raise... and for a bit more responsibility I think.  I'm giving you the Sherman account.  If you handle it well, you'll keep that raise and get yourself a new office to go with it.  Blow it, and you can start looking for another job."

So, on the chopping block you have Identity, and a 4 points Crisis threatening it.  

I'm unsure how to set up Crisis mechanically.  I'm inclined to treat them like any other situation with stats- it represents a 4 point difficult to related tasks, and has a number of Elements equal to its value.  Each Element must be addressed separately (in a separate conflict) to resolve the Crisis.  The number of Elements resolved determine (1) if anything changes, and (2) who gets to say what changes.

Hmmm....

The only hang-up here might be how often Crisis get triggered.

More thought needed.

-B

[Spooky Fanboy]

Background stuff- it isn't a 'shy magic' setting, but one with a handwavy 'most people can't perceive the magic around them' kind of thing.  They can believe in it, they can be subjected to its effects, but they can't really see it, and in the end will usually gloss it over, rationalize it, or forget it.

Hee hee! I like it! I can see much hilarity ensuing...  

Should the tipping point be stable... (S)hould there always be an even-odds chance of the tip going in one direction or the other, with a run of bad (or good) luck swinging you further in one direction or the other?

It's your call, but I'd prefer an even-odds chance. Otherwise, I could see characters see-sawing so fast that the players get motion sickness. I'd leave it in the player's hands as much as possible as to how their characters drift during play.

Another possibility is to use Trouble as a score, and compare all rolls on the two primary scores against Trouble as well.  

If you want to play up the conflict between Identity/Mystery, have any Trouble generated by a failed Mystery roll create a Crisis Pool for Identity, and vice versa. Using magic causes karmic hiccups in the mundane world, and too many mundane problems make it tought to keep hold of your connection to your magic.

The only hang-up here might be how often Crisis get triggered.

IF Trouble builds up, you may want to let the players decide when to trigger a Crisis, if not necessarily letting them specify what exactly the Crisis is. I imagine you have mechanics in place so that characters feel the burn if the Trouble gets too high. Or just say that it automatically kicks in if the Trouble exceeds the appropriate stat. That should keep them on their toes...

[Bailywolf]

OK!

I've got some refinements and alterations that I want to throw out here.

I've changed the basic resolution die mechanic a bit.  Rather than single d10 rolled under (but close) to a score, one or more d6's are rolled, with each falling under the score a success.  

I can do more with the grainer number of dice.  

You get one die gratis, and can claim more based on situational advantages or on your Traits.  Difficult situations or penalties (from injury, for example) subtract dice from your pool.  Generally no more than 2 dice can be gained or lost this way.

The scores are assigned from a pool of 7 rather than 11 points, and traits fall below these as previously described.  

Each trait relevant to your current action gives you an extra die.  Cross-traits give you more dice per trait, but give you Trouble.  

The higher your Trouble score, the greater the chance you'll get to narrate your character's failures, while the lower Trouble the greater your chance to narrate your characters successes.  When determining who gets to narrate (or as Ron describes, 'say when'), compare the roll, score, and trouble as follows:

Success and trait greater than Trouble:  Player narrates.
Success and trait less than Trouble:  GM narrates.
Failure and trait greater than Trouble:  Player narrates.
Failure and trait less than Trouble:  GM narrates.  

Some outcomes are mechanical and somewhat objective- the number of successes and/or failures you roll has mechanical consequences down the line.  (In combat, for example, where any net failures are the 'damage' you sustain etc.)

An example Character:

John Crowley
Identity 4
Background:  Grew up on a farm, but was smart and curious enough to know his little town wasn't the whole world.  Well read but under educated- he wasted too much of his youth drinking and fighting, but hung out in the near-by college town and passed himself off as an English Lit major when he wanted to pick up some coed trim.  He moved away, worked as a handyman, got married, got divorced, and came back to his hometown when his mother died and left him the old family farm.  He's trying to settle in, and find his place in a home grown unfamiliar.
Traits:  Well Read (skill), Handyman (skill), Good with the Ladies (skill), Family Farm (relationship)
Mystery 3
Initiation:  On his first night back, his mother's ghost manifested for him, and lead him out into the woods behind the farmhouse.  She pulled the veil back from his perceptions, and showed him Grandfather Oak- a huge, primal tree with its roots half in the real world and half in the Otherworld.  She told him of the duties he inherited from a distant Cherokee ancestor- to watch over the lands that feed Grandfather Oak's roots.   He slept under the tree that night, and awoke changed, with the Mystery in him.  The following night, the living scarecrow Old Jack came to him- silent and tireless, waiting for John's orders.  Within a week, John could hear the whisper of the plants waking up from the winter.  
Traits:  Green Magic (Art), Old Jack (Arcana), Grandfather Oak (Patron)


Now, Trouble and Crisis.

When you make a check with cross-dice (those gained from Traits of the other score), compare them to your Trouble total as well as to the trait being rolled.  Each die which falls below your Trouble takes a point of Trouble and puts it into a Crisis.  A crisis threatens the score being rolled in some way- ideally focused on a specific Trait.  A crisis requires a number of successes to resolve equal to the Trouble which caused it plus the opposite Score.  Cross-traits can be used to address a Crisis, but you get more Trouble in doing so, of course.  While addressing a Crisis, if you roll no successes three times, you fail, and loose the threatened Trait and a point of the threatened Score, shifting a point to the other Score and adding in a new Trait of your own invention.  If you ever drop below 1 in either score, you character is removed from play- either he looses the Mystery and forgets about magic, or he looses himself and fades away from the real world completely.  

Some examples:

Crowley gets a letter from the country Tax Assessor's office telling him he has to come up with $10k in back taxes within thirty days, or they'll foreclose on his farm.  Crowley's player says, "I'd like to try and come up with the money by calling in some debts and favors."  The GM says, "Alright, a failure means you'll waste a week, Cool?"  Crowley doesn't have any particular Trait related to this, so the player throws a single die, rolling a 5 and a failure.  The GM says, do you want to get into Trouble?  And the player says, "Sure, why the hell not.  I'll ask the Grandfather Oak where I might get some money quick."  Grandfather Oak is a Patron, and so grants 3 dice for cross-purpose actions.  The player rolls them, getting 1, 3, and 6.  A success!  The first success means he gets what he wants, and the extra success can be rolled over into a subsequent conflict as one-time advantage.  Since Crowley has no Trouble right now (the Trouble from using Grandfather Oak will hit after this conflict), the player gets to narrate the success.   He says, "I go and sleep under Grandfather Oak for the night, and I dream of the sounds of distant cannon fire and the tang of fear in the back of my throat, I dream of burying three jars filled with silver and gold coins in the woods behind the outhouse, I remember preying that those damned Union jackals wouldn't find them, and wouldn't burn the house down looking.  In the morning, I go and dig up the coins buried since the Civil War."  The player makes a note "Jars of Gold Coins +1 die" in the Advantages section of his sheet, and notes 3 points of Trouble on it as well.  Play moves on.

Later on, after picking up two more points of Trouble, John Crowley is going to meet a lady that he met at the tax assessor's office in town for drinks, and he runs afoul of a group of drunk frat boys.  He's a tough, fit guy, so he gets his basic die, but doesn't have any special Trait dealing with kicking ass.  The odds are three against one, and so he takes a penalty die, but he isn't drunk and they are and he gets a bonus die.  Crowley's current Trouble score is 5, which means the GM gets to narrate his successes but the player would get to narrate his failures.  On the line is an as kicking for John and likely missing his date.  He rolls a 6 on his basic die, and so sighs and whispers to the weeds growing up through the cracks in the pavement (using his Green Magic trait for an extra die).  He rolls a 4 and a success, but this also scores a success off Trouble, and triggers a 1 point Crisis. The GM narrates the results "The tiny blades of grass lengthen, snaring the drunks' feet and making them stumble all the more.  You simply back away, and watch them fall all over each other.  You arrive at the bar only a few minutes late, but the thrill of the magic is still rushing through your mind, and distracting you.  The thrill you felt making the date and seeing the lady is dimmed somewhat."  This is a 1 point Crisis focused on Crowley's 'Way with the Ladies" Identity trait.  If John doesn't do well with this girl, he'll loose that aspect of himself (though he'll gain something in the Mystery for it).  If he fails three checks before accumulating at least three successes, he'll loose a point of Identity and gain a point of Mystery.  The GM indicates he'll get to make one check per date with the lady, and so this Crisis will likely persist for a while.  On the upside though, the player knocks one point off his Trouble score.  


Alright, I'm pretty comfortable with this so far... I just need a structure which better formalizes conflicts and scale.


Am I moving in the right direction?

-Ben



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[Spooky Fanboy]

Success and trait greater than Trouble:  Player narrates.
Success and trait less than Trouble:  GM narrates.
Failure and trait greater than Trouble:  Player narrates.
Failure and trait less than Trouble:  GM narrates.

To make sure:

1) # of Successes/Failures and score must be higher than Trouble for Players to narrate, or

2) Must have at least one Success/Failure and Trait must be higher than Trouble for Player to narrate.  

Alright, I'm pretty comfortable with this so far... I just need a structure which better formalizes conflicts and scale.


Am I moving in the right direction?

You have an example of play and an example character. You've kept your goal of simple mechanics.  I'd say you're doing good.

Just a thought: With Crisis checks, are you thinking of causing the scale to go up or down depending on how the Trouble comes out? to borrow your example, now that his "Way with the Ladies" Trait is threatened, will the next scene it's getting used in have a higher scale of impact than the first one, making it more dramatic (and catastrophic) if he fails? Certainly adds to the drama to do so.

[Bailywolf]

To make sure:

1) # of Successes/Failures and score must be higher than Trouble for Players to narrate, or

2) Must have at least one Success/Failure and Trait must be higher than Trouble for Player to narrate.  

You have an example of play and an example character. You've kept your goal of simple mechanics.  I'd say you're doing good.

Just a thought: With Crisis checks, are you thinking of causing the scale to go up or down depending on how the Trouble comes out? to borrow your example, now that his "Way with the Ladies" Trait is threatened, will the next scene it's getting used in have a higher scale of impact than the first one, making it more dramatic (and catastrophic) if he fails? Certainly adds to the drama to do so.

Should have been more clear on the narration breakdown- "Success" means you must roll at least one success.  "Failure" means you roll nothing but failed dice.  It is a "yes/no" thing.  

A bit of a refinement for the Crisis trigger is needed too:

Compare cross-dice to the Trouble total as you would to a score- those which fall under Trouble trigger a Crisis with a score equal to the successes rolled plus any additional trouble generated by the die itself.  

For example:

John Crowley uses tells Scarecrow Jack to do fetch the County Commissioner Bill Hicks- an old childhood friend he had a falling out with way back, who now has it in for John.  He is trying to push the foreclosure of John's farm, and bulldoze it for a new subdivision.  There was a woman involved, so things are still pretty bad between them.  John currently has 2 Trouble.  The player says, "I want Jack to drag him back here and put the fear of God in him."  And he throws his base die plus one for Jack against his Mystery of 3, but he rolls a 5 and a 4.  Cursing, the Players says, "Saving the farm is everything to John, so he'll call upon the relationship he has with the place."  

This gives him two cross dice, which he rolls, getting a 1 and a 3- two successes.  The player notes "Bill Hicks is scared of me +1 die"  in his Advantage section.   His Trouble is less than his Mystery, so he gets to narrate the result- "I see Jack loping up the gravel driveway, carrying a sack effortlessly over his shoulder.  The stick-thin scarecrow carries the two-hundred pound man like he was nothing.  He dumps Bill at my feet, and he crawls from the sack shaking with fear and stinking of stale cigarette smoke and piss."  

But, because one of his die rolls falls under his Trouble score as well as his Mystery score, a Crisis is triggered.  One point is removed from John's Trouble score, and added to the two points of Trouble generated by the cross-dice in this conflict, for a three point Crisis.  The GM narrates the seed which starts the crisis- "You ain't natural!  I knew you weren't right when we was boys, but you ain't natural!  You send this monster to kill me?  Why would you do that?  We was friend, John! "  This is a three-point crisis which threatens John's Mystery score- most likely Scarecrow Jack.  Perhaps the realization of Jack's power and willingness to do any horrible thing John could ever wish for or ask makes him fear the scarecrow and turn away from it.  This will arise through playing the Crisis through though.


I'm not sure how you meant by 'scale of impact' in your last comment though- could you explain a bit more?


Thanks for the help BTW.

-Ben

[Spooky Fanboy]

Just a thought: With Crisis checks, are you thinking of causing the scale to go up or down depending on how the Trouble comes out? to borrow your example, now that his "Way with the Ladies" Trait is threatened, will the next scene it's getting used in have a higher scale of impact than the first one, making it more dramatic (and catastrophic) if he fails? Certainly adds to the drama to do so.

I'm not sure how you meant by 'scale of impact' in your last comment though- could you explain a bit more?

Sorry, that was sloppy wording on my part. I meant to ask if, because his "Way with the Ladies" score is threatened already, but it had a relatively minor in-game consequence, the next time it was tested with this particular lady and he failed his Crisis check, would it have a more dramatic in-game consequence, by virtue of it's being the second strike?

The first goof-up meant a poor first date. Would the second goof-up threaten his chances with her altogether? Would the third and final goof-up not only lose his Skill, but make an enemy out of her?

In your newest example, the Crisis starts out higher: he's got an ex-friend fearing for his own life. Obviously, this is going to take some doing to smooth out to any semblance of normalcy. If he failed his roll in a Crisis to smooth things out, would things continue to get more grandly worse unless he succceeded in a Crisis check? I ask because usually when things get fouled up in a movie or book, the Stakes get higher each time until the problem is resolved, one way or another.

Just a thought. If you go this route, you might want to give some examples of how to escalate appropriately for each time a Crisis makes things worse.

Another question: Is there some sort of character advancement system planned for your game? If not, how do characters get their Skills back if they lose them to striking out three times? If you have one and don't wish to discuss it until the basic mechanics are hammered out, I'll certainly understand.

[Bailywolf]

Ah, I see!

Most certainly- this will have to be something I work into the guidelines for running Crisis.  I like that quite a bit...  each failure ups the broader stakes.  I'll have to chew on it a bit.

Currently, there isn't really any kind character advancement system... I'm not even sure if I really need one, as character "power" isn't really at issue in the game.  Within the limits of describing your own traits, background, and initiation, a player can grab a lot of 'power' right off, and it shouldn't really make much difference.  It will just let them get into more Trouble easier.

If a character looses a point in a Score (and thus, one of the traits under that Score) he gains a point in the other score, and gains a new trait there.    There is no net loss in terms of the number of scores or the number of score points a character has to play with- right now it is a closed loop.

I was considering offering player the option of changing a score if they resolve a crisis successfully with a value at least equal to the score that they want to change.  For example, if John gets into a series of complications which threaten his Identity, and he's down to 2 points (making his Mystery a 5), and he successfully resolves a 5 point Crisis, he can choose to shift a point from Mystery to Identity (and loose a Mystery trait, and gain an Identity trait).  These new traits can be the same as the old ones (allowing a character who strays to 'rediscover' what he had lost or forgotten) or they can be new (finding something new to replace something you lost or forgot).  

I suppose I'm thinking that if characters remain dynamic (with changing scores and traits) that this will serve the same purpose as a power-scaling advancement system (to keep the character interesting and offer new types of action for the player to explore).

Do you think this will compensate for the lack of a conventional advancement scheme?

-Ben

[Spooky Fanboy]

If a character looses a point in a Score (and thus, one of the traits under that Score) he gains a point in the other score, and gains a new trait there.    There is no net loss in terms of the number of scores or the number of score points a character has to play with- right now it is a closed loop.

DOH! *slaps forehead* That's right, the whole game's about trading off from one side to advance the other, and vice versa. Of course you don't need a traditional advancement system; you have a suitable character evolution system in place! Of course, this assumes that your character is already as good as he's going to get, and from this point on, all he'll do is shift his attention to new things. As long as that's clearly stated, I'm sure people will get the hang of it.

May I offer some suggestions? (I know, I know, "Gee, Spooky, is there any force on Earth or in Heaven that could stop you?!") First off, one thing that could use a little more room for fluctuation is the amount of Relationships available. I'd personally say that your Scores in Identity and Mystery generate two pools each: one for Skills, and one for appropriate Relationships. The points for Skills have to be allocated at character creation, but the Relationship points can be withheld. If the player wants to announce a Relationship during play, he can roll a die to see if it's under his relevant score, and if he succeeds, viola, instant Relationship! This, of course, can only be done until the points are used up (meaning matches the appropriate Score).

This leads inevitably to the next point, which is, "Why have a Patron Score in the Mystery section, since it could just as easily be a Relationship?" Good point, but we'd need something to fill it. I have an idea! (Of course.) How about an Approach score under Mystery, one that sort of codifies how you invoke and direct your magic? Do you do the traditional shaman thing? Do you use chaos magick? Vodoun or Santeria? Postmodern stylings, involving cut-n-paste, Barbie dolls, and using Silly String to form warding circles? I think this would complement, but not take the place of Art, plus help distinguish the characters from one another without complicating the rules too much.

For Identity, perhaps we could substitute Wealth, keeping in mind that the word includes more than just money or property.

Up to you, of course. But I see it helping the game to have flowing relationships as well as skills, as the character's balance shifts. And while it's true that you had stated the characters are Seers caught between two worlds (like traditional shamans), I don't see it diluting the game's theme to allow different approaches to harnessing the magic.