I Tire of Advantages and Disadvantages

[Dregg]

Ok, I have decided to continue work on my Tools of Magick RPG. The concept is simple... The characters are normals who one day have thier true names called by the goddess and sudenly become "Pagan Supers" of sorts. There is alot more to it, but that is the jist.
Now it is going to be a Tarot based system using readings as the randomiser and determining factor in the story. I don't want to use powers or Advantages in the normal sense but something that flows with the ideas behind the Tarot and with a metaphysical flair.
I have come to a design brick wall with all my thoughts resorting back to the norm.

Just wanted to toss this out there and see what feed back I can get. It might jar this brain block loose.

Thanks in advance

[Tobias]

You're going to get requests to tell us more. :)

At first glance: tie advantages into Tarot mechanics.

Every player gets 3 advantages and 1 disadvantage at the start

these are freely described. Each advantage can have the following effect:

1. If a specific (choose!) Tarot card comes up in the reading, bonus effect x
2. Different types of Taror Readin become possible
3. A certain Taror Card is always swapped with another, if it comes up
4. Opponents drawing 'your' Tarot card automatically experience it as a negative,

etc. etc. etc.

[Doehring]

I can think of two other ways off hand one would be to use a magic system, Seperate from advantages much like how magic is done in D&D and the other would be a skill based system much like how magic is done in shadowrun.

A better decription of this is, Each person has a certin amount of ability that they may complete each day as long as they have the initial ability. As they progress in experience they can progress in there amount of skill "A few ways for this would be to either make additional abilities cost experience or that there ability is determined by there total experience.

The second methos is to have a series of skills that represent what they can do with there abilities. Based on what there skill check is determines what they are able to do with the power, You might want some sort of limiter for this method. Each time they use this power they take stun damage or mabie even real damage, Possibly each time they use there ability ir trmporally rreduces an attribute or the clasaic method of mana.

I have had similar problems this is what I cam up with let me know what you think of it.

- Doehring

[Dregg]

Well to break it down mechanics wise Each player will do a mini reading with the GM. This might be a bit tough, I have been a on and off practicing Wiccan so I know the interpetations, but I will need to write a cut and try reading chart.
Anyway based on the out come of the reading the player will know what suit they are based on  (Swords, Cups, Wands, Etc) and one of the Major Arcana will be the Soul's name. The Soul Name will be the one card when drawn by the player or allies will give a major boost in tasks, if it is drawn by the GM it will be a bane. I really want to stay away from conventional "Stats" for this and make it a RPG of Spiritual exploration.
It might be best to look into interpeting the Minor Arcana to special abilities that the players will gain during char gen.

In my original write up it was too much like everything else I have ever wrote and actually picking the brains of some of the Forges best at Dreamation I have come to realise that I need to step outside the box in the design of this game.

[Shreyas Sampat]

I think that you will find the Tarot mechanics in Kirt Dankmyer's Card Captors Cabal very interesting and useful.

[Dregg]

A better decription of this is, Each person has a certin amount of ability that they may complete each day as long as they have the initial ability. As they progress in experience they can progress in there amount of skill "A few ways for this would be to either make additional abilities cost experience or that there ability is determined by there total experience.

This is to more my thought. When the player starts each morning in game time they will draw a hand from the tarot deck and each of the cards will determine how thier power is used. I do want to have static abilities, but I really want to stay away from the Str, Will, Pow, Dex model of characteristics.
The real challange is creating Static Abilities and give the illusion of a dynamic structure.
The Characters are norms who found out that the world has other uses for them. Some of the characters might even fight the fact or go insane ala CoC because they were just too fragile to accept the truth of the universe.

[Dregg]

I think that you will find the Tarot mechanics in Kirt Dankmyer's Card Captors Cabal very interesting and useful.

I'll take a look...

Do you have a link?

[Rob Carriere]

I don't know if this would fit the mold of your game at all, but I'm going to toss in the suggestion anyway. :-)

Could you replace (some of) the ads, disads, skills, attributes with fixed tarot cards?

What I'm thinking of is that at the start of each session you do a tarot reading for each character. However, some of the cards in the reading are pre-determined ("there is a Reversed Tower in the center position") and some are drawn fresh each session. The fixed cards are determined in char-gen. This will cause the readings to fluctuate but still have a distinct flavor for each character. Character advancement could consist of replacing a fixed card.

SR
--

[Dregg]

I don't know if this would fit the mold of your game at all, but I'm going to toss in the suggestion anyway. :-)

Could you replace (some of) the ads, disads, skills, attributes with fixed tarot cards?

What I'm thinking of is that at the start of each session you do a tarot reading for each character. However, some of the cards in the reading are pre-determined ("there is a Reversed Tower in the center position") and some are drawn fresh each session. The fixed cards are determined in char-gen. This will cause the readings to fluctuate but still have a distinct flavor for each character. Character advancement could consist of replacing a fixed card.

SR
--

I was thinking about this last night.
Yes, at character generation the GM will use the "Celtic Cross" method to determine the characters abilities.
It will determine
What is behind you
beneath you
above you
before you
what is pressing now
the outcome
This will create the story narritive and help the player and GM create the charactes past.
These inital cards will become static and play into the characters life every session. The outcome card will dtermine the characters suit and will become the characters "true name"

I'm thinking of just haveing the static stats as the 4 suits
Swords-Str and edurance
Penacles - wealth and social
Wands - metaphysical
Cups - agility and dynamism

I still would like to have a number value to those, but i think the point of this new RPG is to leave the old conventions behind. I have a new goal in this also to create a different concept of witches in RPG's. Making them the focus in a superheroic sort of way but instead of 4 color, I am breaking it down to two.

The thought is, everyones story is burned into thier psychie and metaphysically we carry it like a badge and can be sensed by all creatures and entities who are "atune".
The static cards would represent this. so in a sence the story is already told for the PC's, just fate can mess with them.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

One of the curses of RPG design is that it often turns into isolated "character creation design."

I think that you are recognizing that the classic list of advantages and disadvantages tends in that direction, especially relative to its actual use during play in many groups.

Let's look instead at two other aspects of System: resolution and development. Resolution is "how stuff happens," and development is "how characters change." You can see, I'm sure, that both of them are embedded in a series of social agreements (summarized in Forge jargon by the Lumpley Principle).

Anyway, once you have resolution and development a little clearer in your mind, then you can see how character creation is really nothing but a starting point for those two processes in action - and anything about the character which is not contributing to them, however indirectly, is a waste of time (unless, of course, you want to encourage making up characters as an end in itself, which I'm assuming you don't).

So now let's look at that Celtic Cross thing you have going ... one thing that doesn't interest me about it is that it's static. Tarot cards (and I'm not talking about the practice of Tarot, just the cards) are reversible, up and down. Can you not have events/developments which turn cards over?

I know that sounds like I'm starting with the Cross and then deciding how to change it, but actually, my thinking is the reversed version: starting with changes and then seeing how a character design can reflect or drive it.

Another suggestion is to take advantage of the numbers on the cards. After all, every Tarot card is numbered, and to stick with the Minor Arcana for now - why not have changes simply be trading out cards for same-suit cards with different numbers? For example, say I have a Six of Swords in some spot in my Cross ... wham! I take damage in that "spot" of my layout (what is beneath you, say), and it has to get reduced to the Three of Swords. This is neat because some spots in the Cross are good if they're high, and some are good if they're low. If something damages what is before you, you are advantaged ...

Anyway, none of these are intended as direct recommendations. They're intended instead to show that character creation isn't a "thing," but rather a starting point in a dynamic process - it might help to have the process before you can talk about the starting point.

Also, as you can probably infer, I do suggest throwing out the "attributes" entirely. It would be far, far more interesting to me simply to have the Cross be, itself, the character sheet - even made of the actual cards, with no "sheet" at all.

Other games for you to check out: Once Upon a Time (not an RPG), Psychosis: Ship of Fools, and Everway. All of them use customized, picture/concept oriented cards in a Tarot-ish fashion, although only one uses a Tarot deck, and should provide a lot of food for thought about how to utilize such tools.

Best,
Ron

[Dregg]

Wow,
Thank you Ron all of that was excellent advice.

1st I have to say is I totaly agree on losing the "Stats". I plan to make this as non conventional as I can. After meeting alot of the Forge memebers at Dreamation I almost felt embaressed that my indie game still used things such as Attributes and a D20. There is more to design after all, and alot of unopened doors.
I like the idea of the character sheet being a place mat/holder for the cards themselves. Yes the cards do have different meanings when placed inverted and upright.
What I meant by static in character design is that the first reading will deterime the characters story, strengths and weaknesses, and abilities. Those will stay with the character. After that the cards will represent things that happen in thier lives and help resolve conflict.
Tarot is basically a D12 +1 with the numbers going form 1 to 13 (if my memory does not fail me) in the Minor Arcana and 0-26 in the Major.

I will look over my Once upon a time again to see if anything clicks with it.

This will take alot more brain power than anything I have designed before, but I really want to break old habits in design with this one.

Thank you again
I feel honored that you posted

[Emily Care]

Hey Dregg,

I have come to a design brick wall with all my thoughts resorting back to the norm.

You've gotten some good advice here. Just to add another spin,  my question for you is what kinds of challenges & obstacles do you want your characters to face? What's going to be driving them to change & grow? As pagan supers, will they be facing demonic hordes a la Buffy, or facing their own internal demons that arise as they master new powers? Do the gods call upon the characters for tasks and sacrifices? Would it make sense for your character's aspects to be influenced by the deity-forms they have relationships with? Will your characters be making choices about light/dark/grey uses of magic? Where are the ethical & moral lines you might want them to face & grapple with?

I say this not so much to get you to flesh out your setting (though that's not a bad thing in and of itself) but more to point to questions you might think about to help yourself come up with kinds of mechanics that will aid your players in creating the stories you can get excited about.  If you look at a lot of the innovative games (Sorcerer, Dogs, MLwM etc) they provide dynamic situations, often within customizable settings, with mechanics that hinge on the issues raised by the situation and which directly connect with players' contributions.

Trad attribute/skills stat systems don't give you much information with respect to all that.  What they do instead is mete out limited ability for the players to contribute to the overall story that is determined by the gm.  

Hope this might be of help.

best,
Emily Care

[Dregg]

]

You've gotten some good advice here. Just to add another spin,  my question for you is what kinds of challenges & obstacles do you want your characters to face? What's going to be driving them to change & grow? As pagan supers, will they be facing demonic hordes a la Buffy, or facing their own internal demons that arise as they master new powers? Do the gods call upon the characters for tasks and sacrifices? Would it make sense for your character's aspects to be influenced by the deity-forms they have relationships with? Will your characters be making choices about light/dark/grey uses of magic? Where are the ethical & moral lines you might want them to face & grapple with?

A lot to think about, but i can say i do have the answer.
Jared A. Sorensen once asked me about a game I was writing and asked "How do you play your game?". I went on to explain the mechaincs, and he said "I did not ask about the Mechinics... How do you play your game?"
That is the question I ask myslef everytime I get a concept in my head.
So with that...

The chosen are ones who are thrust into a reality of the world they did not want to be part of... kind of like the goddess picked them up from thier sleep and put them in front of charging horses. So yes alot of it is self exploration though the experience of becoming powerful. Again there is a threat they have to confront so the buffy element it there as well.
I have always believed in telling the story, before doing any mechincs stuff. The rules should help the story, like Ron's suggestion of checking out games like Once upon a time it is the way I would like the games to flow where the story is a part of a whole with the GM being a moderator to the exploration of character.

[eruditus]

I know that other's ideas can be a crutch and this is not to disuade you from coming up with your own creative solutions, however Anoch (the makers of Mystick) were thinking of some great ideas using the Mystick cards (tarot cards with abilities and classical art work) as the resolution mechanic.

I do not have any current contact info for Eric however I put out a query and if I hear anything back I will direct him to the thread.  Maybe he could throw us some ideas.  I think he is a fantastic game designer.

[Doehring]

I just thought I would suggest this I am not sure if you are planning on using cards in your game but if you do then you might want to allow for conversion rules so that someone can use a standard deck of playing cards, which were originally used for tarot reading anyways.

- Doehring