Humanity as Heroism?

[Sean]

I haven't quite been able to make 'humanity as empathy' work for S&S, despite some broad agreement with Ron that this is at least one of the staple definitions of the genre.

I wonder if anyone has tried to make the thread topic definition work. Any useful links?

Of course this leads directly into the question "Well, what is heroism, anyway?" I suppose the sense relevant to the kind of fantasy fiction I'm thinking of is taking serious risks for one's friends and community and perhaps also family, as a start. Sometimes you get the whole human race or world as the stakes. This does fit together with empathy at the small-scale/personal connection level at least.

So anyway, the way this would work as a driver would be something like this. You need to do heroic things (presumably against some challenge represented in the kicker/game background) to keep your humanity score up. These heroic things pit you against some foes that are so dangerous that you'll probably need to call on sorcery/demons to overcome them, but that threatens your humanity. But on the other hand the sustained problem presented by the kicker and/or game background means that sometimes you'll want to use the sorcery anyway (not just to 'win' that adventure, but because even after this village is saved the reanimated sorcerer is still threatening the kingdom, or whatever).

Is this resonating with anyone? Any helpful links? The powerful inspiration I got from reading Sorcerer convinces me that there's something I need to do with it waiting in the game, but my first two attempts were not what they might have been.

[Ron Edwards]

Sigh ... Sean, you'll be hunting Words til doomsday if you keep this up. Humanity as X. Humanity as Y. Humanity as Z.

Why not start with a look & feel first, and do Humanity second? Especially after you present that look & feel to other people who want to play, and thus let the Humanity discussion do the job rather than you? It's clearly your stumbling block, and I know why - you're twiddling two dials, (a) the one which sets what Humanity is and (b) the one which validates Humanity-judgments through interactions during play. Unless you are nicely set with one, then you can't adjust the other, and you're trying to match their "tones" by twiddling them at once. It won't work.

Better yet, why not have someone else run Sorcerer? I am beginning to think that the concept of GM is overwhelming to you in this game, and that its implications send you stumbling back to various assumptions when you try. I would very much like to see you simply play a character and enjoy it, without all this sense of responsibility or "what's wrong with me" that it seems to instill.

If people would get over this idea that the heavens are supposed to open when you play the game (because of what it does, while they soak it up), I'd be a lot happier.

Best,
Ron

[Sean]

Hi Ron -

I don't know anyone who's willing to GM Sorcerer for me. If I find someone, I will start playing in her/his game.

I do have some ideas about the kind of thing I'm looking for here, so maybe I'll post those when I feel up to it. Part of my (personal) problem with Sorcerer (which came out in play the second time I tried to run it) is that I have trouble specifying/understanding the carrot. A Humanity definition that doesn't resonate with the players gives you a stick, but not a carrot. Without both I find it hard to offer the kind of choices I'd like to. I think that's what I'm rooting around for with this new bit of rumination.