Creating a new Tabletop RPG...

[EllePepper]

I need to understand the basic mechanics behind the dice and points systems.  I have played before, but I'm still not sure where to begin.  I have the original idea and the general first campaign set, I just don't know how to do skill sets and dice and don't know how to decide which die system to use.

Am most familiar and comfortable with d10 d20, but don't know how to actually go about making the system.  Help please.

[talysman]

welcome to the Forge!

first step: do a search on the forums for the phrase "standard rant" in the subject line with "Mike Holmes" as the author. this will give you one article about what games you should read as prep before designing, plus a couple commentaries on typical overused design elements.

next: get RPG Design Patterns on John Kirk's website. it has a number of design patterns and how they are used in specific games. there are more articles you could read, but this will get you started.

what I would recommend if you don't know where to start with dice mechanics, skill systems, and the like is to not worry about it. start with a simple one-die, yes-no mechanic and no skills or classes. write down what the players do around the table and what they describe their characters doing, using the yes-no die roll as your only mechanic. once you have an idea of what the players should do and what the characters should be able to do, you will see holes in the system, places where a yes-no mechanic doesn't support what you want to happen. this is where you will make your changes.

another technique: write down what's important to your system. is magic important? you will want to have more detail in the magic system, then. do you want personality to come into play? then you need personality mechanics. you probably want only three or four unique features, combined with a basic resolution mechanic, embedded in a reward system, plus any "generation" systems used before play (character generation, setting generation, etc.)

good luck!

[EllePepper]

Ok, that unmuddied it slightly.  But I don't understand how you can't have classes especially when I have about nine different race skill sets to be accounted for.  Personality is a must for this game because a lot of it depends on interaction with NPC and each other.

I will look into reading the things that you pointed out to me, but I'm still a bit new to all of this so I'm still pretty confused.  But I'm getting to the point where I at least know the direction I'm heading, We know what the backbone of the storyline is though it is quite open-ended.  I guess what I'm saying is thanks for the info, and I'll try to get back to you when my head stops spinning.

I must be insane, I mean I have always loved rpging, but we used a kit-bashed system that combined a d10 and d20 system (It was a system my GM had designed), so i'm not really sure where to go from here.   I'll try what you suggested because I can sort of see where you are going.  Getting a 'base' reading of what the 'norms' would be, but I'm still pretty lost.

new, and still quite lost...

[Blankshield]

Hi and welcome to the forge!

Ellepepper, (what's your name, out of curiousity?  We tend to go by real names around here, even us weirdos with 'tags') I'm going to rewind and contradict Talysman slightly.

The stuff he gives is really good advice, and is pretty much 'step 1', but there's a Step 0:

Play. :)

If you've got a gaming group you play with, at least a couple of them have a game sitting on the shelf they've never played.  Start with that one.  Go to rpg.net and buy some of the games that look neat and have good reviews. 

I couldn't wrap my head around the whole 'races/no races, classes, skills' thing until I'd played some games that didn't have them, and started to see what it actually looked like.

Hands down, nothing has helped me design my games more than just sitting and playing other people's games.  Hands down.

Hope that helps!

James

[EllePepper]

Elle Is actually just my first intial.  I'm Laura by the way.  I just don't like going by my name online.  EllePepper is also one of my psudonyms for writing, So, I guess it boils down to call me Elle Or Laura.  I'll answer to either. 

Unfortunately, the friend who has the kit-bash system I like is no longer within my sphere of friends,  (All I'll say is he's a crazy ex and leave it at that)  and I will have to go out and get myself some more books for some of the other systems.  Being a writer and not fond of any sort of math, I never paid attention to the system itself, and I'm a little rusty.  (Most of my books were lost when I moved from college, I think someone took them by 'accident')  Not to mention a lot of it was the one-of a kind system my ex had created.

As to gaming groups, I don't have any in the area that play at a time when I can get there.  So I'm going to look into the RPG connections online.... sigh, so much to do, not sure where to start.

[mutex]

Howdy, welcome.

To quote a great philosopher, "Forget what you know... or think you know." :D

Seriously, though, system does matter.  But, what really makes the system is what you want the players and characters to do.  For example, class systems are good for games where you want a rigid social structure, where priests are priests and barbarians are barbarians, and they generally avoid each other excepting in certain cases where they are geased into clearing out some noisome dungeon.  Or, if you'd rather have characters live in a world where, sure, this guy is a priest, but he's a fighting priest, but not really a monk or paladin, and whatnot, then you'll find that class really isn't that important at all.  Similar issues with race, attributes, skills, etc.  It's all arbitrary, and only the elements that enhance your experience are significant.

[EllePepper]

Thank you to who ever told me to read the RPG design Patterns Maual.  That helped some. 

My biggest problem is, right now, that I am going to be using a conflicted gague and a trauma gague, on some of my characters, so how do I deal with the ones to which they don't apply? 

Most of my 'creatures' are shape shifters, (Conflicted gague) but since this is a 'rebellion' story there is a trauma gague' and I don't know how to make the humans who do not have the conflicted gague as effective or as...um.. I don't want them getting skunked in other words.  I mean in a contest, my others win hands down, so I have to find a way to make it possible for human (mortal) team members to play as such.  And I'm going to use a race profile system because there are some attributes that are unique to each group, but I think classes are not the best way to go.  Am I making any sense?

[EllePepper]

Ok, The crux of my problem is this:

I need to find a system that is flexible enough to use with an open-ended storyline, which is based off of the character reactions, and yet is solid enough to sustain a trauma gague/conflicted gague system. 

I don't want to do the race/class system because it doesn't allow for the flexibility, but I am not sure how to define characters and traits otherwise.  (I'm used to the strict pattern RPG's but I don't like a. the book keeping, and B. the rigidity.  I need something fluid enough to allow a result other than combat.

The game is both tactical and Character based, but it MUST be played with group interaction.  The individual stats are nice, but no one character can succeed. 

[Sydney Freedberg]

Hello, Elle. I think we may all be getting way too technical way too fast. The technical stuff is important, absolutely, but it's just a tool, and if you dive into it too fast, you start tearing your hair out over questions equivalent to "should I use a computer-controlled anti-lock braking system or retro-rockets?" when you haven't yet decided whether you're building a sportscar or a spaceship.

If I read your earlier posts right, you've mainly (only?) played with rules derived from D20 and/or the Tri-Stat D10 system? Those games (along with GURPS, FUDGE, Storyteller/World of Darkness, and many others) are all fine, but they are all variations on the same theme -- they're all cars, as it were: They all have a GM, who determines some kind of difficulty number, which the players compare to the sum of various character statistics and modifiers and die rolls to see if they succeed, and they're all focused on combat.

But there are some very different games out there (spaceships, bicycles, submarines -- okay, enough of that metaphor) that use totally different approaches: Some don't have a GM, or don't use dice, or don't have character stats to add up, or they use the same rules for both combat and someone having a moral dilemma, whatever. You'd be very well served by checking out a few of these games.

There are three good ones available free over the web (the hyperlinks should work, but just in case I've typed out the links as well):

Torcherbearer - http://njyar.thesmerf.com/wiki/torchwiki.html
Legends of Alyria - http://alyria.blogspot.com/
Capes (demo version) - http://www.museoffire.com/Games/downloads.html

And there are some story-generating techniques that might be of interest to you that I summarized in this thread here - at the ungainly address http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17169.msg182305#msg182305, in case the hyperlink doesn't work.

I'd recommend that you skim these links, ponder a little, and then get back to us. Make that spaceship versus sportscar decision first, then we can worry about conflicted gauges and character classes.

[EllePepper]

I've tried the non-gm system for a few games, and I didn't really appreciate it, yeah, there was a lot of character interaction, but little story development, and the stories all too soon became disjointed so that no one could remember what the orginal goal had been.

As for the dice, no dice thing, I'm comfortable with d10 and d20 systems, I don't know anything else.  I'm going to try it, but the format I want to use does include a GM.

[Callan S.]

Hi EllePepper/Laura,

Welcome to the Forge!

One of the coolest tricks I learnt fromt this site, is to make a mock up of play. Just write down a made up account of exactly how you would like play to go. You only need to write down a paragraph or two of what you think would be the most exciting part of the game. In particular, write it as the players would say it...especially noting where and about what you think they'd start getting excited.

Anyway, it really helps out. Tell me if I was just confusing. :)

[Sydney Freedberg]

That "mock up of play" thing is cool -- an example of it was made into this sticky thread, here - http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1896.0).

I've tried the non-gm system for a few games, and I didn't really appreciate it, yeah, there was a lot of character interaction, but little story development, and the stories all too soon became disjointed...[/url]

That's what I thought too; but I've also played in a GM-less campaign for, oh, maybe six months now (Capes, full version), and we've actually told a story that works. The trick seems to be rules that realize "no GM" actually means "everyone is a GM" and then allocate the shares of that power very carefully. And there's no one way to do it.

For example, on Ben Lehman's new game Polaris , if I'm sitting across the table from you, then when you play a scene with your PC, I'm playing all the bad guys ("the Mistaken"), and the person on one side of me is playing all the people you love, and the person on the other side of me is playing all the people you have some duty towards -- and then, when it's my turn to play a scene with my PC, you're playing my Mistaken and all the roles switch.

I mean, who the hell who'd've thought of that? (Yes, Ben would've. I know. It was a rhetorical question. Sheesh).  And for your game, probably, that exact solution is not going to be the solution; and some of my favorite games are still ones with very powerful GMs who drive the story hard (e.g. Vincent Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard, Paul Czege's My Life with Master). But the point is I had never even imagined all the possible ways of doing things until I looked at a bunch of different games -- played a bunch is even better, but just reading is a real eye-opener. I came to this site with one game idea, read some stuff, chucked my whole idea, and am now working (slowwwwwly) on two others. Reading games that resemble nothing you've seen before just makes a huge difference, and it's a fun learning process.

[deep breath]

And I'll stop ranting now. But, any questions, just post or feel free to PM me (little icon thingies on the left margin; I can never remember which it is until I've clicked half of them.).

[Sydney Freedberg]

Bloody mistyped tags. Sorry about the formatting in that last one.

[EllePepper]

No problem.  I get what you are saying, but with the types of characters I'm using I don't know that that would work.  And with some of the people I've played with a non-gm is a BAD idea.

I like the flexibility, but I think for what I'm doing  it's too simple if that makes sense.  Reading the game patterns thing helped quite a bit, and so I understand that a class pattern is not right either.  I'm thinking of a modified template system perhaps.  where you are assigned a set of particular skills or abilities for your race with all the pluses and minuses, but any you want to add after that, is up to you and your resources.  You can learn anything you want, if you have the time and the ability.  But you cannot change the 'static' abilities of your race.  I'm also using a conflicted gague for most races.  (Partially to make things more interesting, and partially to prevent the 'god' chararacter complex.)

[EllePepper]

Sorry, let me back up, Replying to the post directly above me about gm-less system.  I can see some merits, and am implimenting a few of the good things.  (I hope)  Like I said I'm trying to do a more chararacter driven storyline, so I made the GM more of a ref and less of a schoolmaster.  He isn't quite so arbitrary (I hope)