Changeling vs Vampire

[Anna B]

I'm try to understand why I really like old World of Darkness Changeling and  rather dislike Vampire. I've only played both in Minds Eye Theater (the LARP system) and the Vampire games I played were all Sabbot.

I think part of the iussue is how they react to challenges; vampires tend to sit in the center and pull strings. The Sabbot games I was in involed a had lot of down time. People used influances, did reserch and hunted. I didn't enjoy that part of the game much. Well, really I didn't enjoy any part of the game much. I was intimidated by most of the other players, and unsure what to do. So maybe it was socail problem.

I'm trying hard to come up with an example of something that happen in one of these games and I really can't think of anything. I remember quite alot of standing around an wachting the big wigs of the city have plot. There where some attacks on elders, but I remember then mostly as lots of RPS rather than as action.

To get back to my frist train of thought, Changelings go out and do look for trouble. There's something creepy down at the mariana, lets go look for it. Wired things have been happing in the bad part of town, lets go there and find out why. I think part of is because Changeling have more powers that let them find stuft. They have omen, will-o-the-wisp and Eshus. Vampires are strong and fast, but that doesn't help them change the plot much.

(This post took much longer than I thought, and I'm now running late. More latter. Oh and Spell Check isn't working right now, so I'm hope I haven't made any dreadfull mistakes in that area -if I have I'll fix them latter.)

[HenryT]

I think your point about characters who go out and investigate problems versus ones who don't is actually a fairly general point.  A tabletop game with four or five PCs can often survive with comparatively passive characters, as long as there's some motive force, be it a suitable GM or one PC able to keep things going, but that doesn't work so well in LARPs with more people.  White Wolf has a habit of creating settings where, taken literally, it appears that the characters go out of their way to avoid doing anything.

Your description of the Sabbat games is pretty common: I've found that when someone at a convention says they don't like LARP, about half will admit that it's because they tried a MET game (usually Vampire) and got bored sitting on the edge with nothing to do, and got soured on the whole concept of LARP.

This seems to follow from a sort of "trickle-down" theory of storytelling, which postulates that if you run a single plotline which keeps the big wigs busy, the rest of the game will be entertained by the ensuing political ramifications.  This seems to be most common in Vampire games, because the flavor text so strongly encourages it.  Unfortunately, the rules don't back up the setting, so a lot of well-intentioned games end up boring a lot of the players.

I think it's the settings, though, and not the powers, which are responsible.  Having lots of powers impedes plotlines as often as it supports them--it becomes too easy to get everything you want, and hard to put characters in a position where they need to make a meaningful decision.  For the sake of an example, all Buffy (the Vampire Slayer) can do, basically, is be strong and fast, but that doesn't stop her both from using those abilities to affect plot.  If you were in a game where the Vampires weren't able to change the plot, that was a problem with the plot.

Henry

[Josh Roby]

My armchair analysis says that this is a question of Core Stories, Situation, and the System supporting play in that Situation.

Changeling has a dozen core stories (most of them contradictory) and lots of possibilities for Situation, most of which boil down to questing and "big bad making trouble here, go take out," and a System that supports creating, finding, and taking out said big bads.

Vampire has one core story (political machinations in the shadows!), one Situation (there's a Prince/Bishop/Muckymuck and he tells you to do something, which might improve your social standing), and a System that does not support that Situation at all (you can do what he tells you, but the consequences of doing so are not supported at all).

It's important to note that Vampire was written first, and Changeling is a number of game designs later.  If you look at the progression of titles, each one has more core story options and more potential situations.  The new Vampire took a lot of what was limited core stories and situations and made them optional instead of global (Camarilla-style Princes are now in pockets, as I understand, instead of everywhere).

For a minor illustrative note, consider how much of Changeling texts obsesses about Traditionalist versus Modernist politics -- and then does not actually support changing things or squelching dissent.  In this case, this Core Story and suggested Situation is not at all supported by the System.

[Andrew Morris]

As Henry mentions, it's relatively easy to be a passive player in most table-top games. You can just be swept along with the flow, and contribute here and there. For many players, that's what they want. In a LARP, however, you really have to be active (or working with/for an active player) to be involved in "cool stuff."

Of course, that's just a guess, because I don't know you and your preferences. Maybe it's an issue to for you to let your character become one of the strings that the more active vampire players are pulling. Maybe you don't groove on the whole gothy, lords-of-the-shadows feel of V:tM.

And the fact that you enjoy Changeling LARPs says maybe it's not a matter of the LARP format. I dunno. I'd need to hear more about other games (TT and LARP alike) that you really enjoyed, and ones you hated.

If it's just a matter of wanting very active, trouble-seeking characters, grab some friends and play Dogs in the Vineyard. That's all you do in DitV. You find a tangled mess of trouble, take a moral stance, judge the hell out of, and set things right.

[Anna B]

Well, part of the "cool powers" theory came from a conversation I had with my younger brother. He is playing a table top Vampire game, and complained to me that it was harder to go out looking for trouble in that game then in the Changeling LARP I ran a while ago.

I do enjoy some amount slow play, and silly bickering. In an Arcana Evolved game I'm currently playing I have tons of fun, bickering with other party members about pastries, furnishing my character's house an other very trivial things, although this fairly small part of what we do it the game. We mostly go out and adventure things. 

Right, I was going to add some example of Changeling play to give this a bit more focus.

One cool use of the "I'm an Eshu" power in my game was when a player used it to find a gas truck.  He then took the gas truck and drove it into a factory creating and scary scene. (This description does not do it justice.)

Another player wanted to locate someone who could be anywhere in the US.He used omen His character drew a map of the US, took out a pack of cigarettes placed them up right in the map and them lit a match and let it drop, it lit the cigarette closest to the person. (I'm not sure this has much to do with my point, but I though it was cool moment.)

What I'm trying to get out of all of this, is an idea of how I can design a game or setting  that has some of the features of changeling that I enjoy. But first I have to figure out what those features are.