Does Capes need a GM?

[TonyLB]

Yep!

[Sindyr]

Because if you don't... well, let's not go there.

Of course the importance of the Kill Captain Alpha conflict is vastly reduced if immediate, total, and uncontestable retcons are permitted.  Something I am not in favor of.

Sindyr, I am specifically talking to Joshua.  Like I said, your constant hammering home of your own personal opinions is starting to make it hard for me to provide support to ... oh ... anybody else.  I'm trying to address that in a sociable way, still leaving this channel open for you to talk on when somebody is talking to you, or talking generally.  But at the same time, I need you to leave some room for other people to have discussions that are not all about you.

Then I will ask you to return the favor and not insert yourself into a running conversations with others that I have been having, which you have done recently at least once or twice.

[TonyLB]

Then I will ask you to return the favor and not insert yourself into a running conversations with others that I have been having, which you have done recently at least once or twice.

My boards, my responsibility.  I feel strongly that occasionally making you pause for breath so that other people can get a word in edge-wise is a priority.  I don't feel anywhere near as strongly that giving you more room to express yourself on the forum is a priority.  Request denied.

[Sindyr]

Then I will ask you to return the favor and not insert yourself into a running conversations with others that I have been having, which you have done recently at least once or twice.

My boards, my responsibility.  I feel strongly that occasionally making you pause for breath so that other people can get a word in edge-wise is a priority.  I don't feel anywhere near as strongly that giving you more room to express yourself on the forum is a priority.  Request denied.

Your boards, your fiat.  I was fairly sure you would use this tactic, as it was the only one left.  I just wanted to make sure that everyone sees you using your mod powers to insert yourself into my conversations while denying others the right to do the same to you in turn.  That what carried the day today wasn't reason, or persuasion, or being right or correct.  You get your way in this because you are the mod, regardless of how incorrect (imo) you are.

I will give you praise though in that most mods use their power to shut down those that philosophically oppose them with far more frequency.  I think this is the first occasion I can recall where you have felt it necessary to retreat into your "mod power" stance to get what you wanted while preventing me from pursuing a course I felt as justified.

So, while I am happy that this is now a matter of public record - that you will correct others when you feel it necessary without allowing them to correct you when they it is necessary, and the use of the Appeal to Force fallacy that follows - I have to be fair and say this is the first time in the months I have been here when I have seen you use this unfortunate tactic.

Hopefully it will be the last.

I will of course endeavor to follow your directive, as I have no choice, and not "insert" myself into these (private?) conversations.

I will however quote a recent post of yours when someone else did exactly the same thing as I, and wondered if his insertion was innapropriate, you replied:

Nah.  If it were a private conversation then we'd be having it in private, right?

Nice ideals, if you can keep to them.

[TonyLB]

I will of course endeavor to follow your directive, as I have no choice, and not "insert" myself into these (private?) conversations.

Dude, of course you have a choice.  If I'd been modding you I'd have modded you.

If you're content to say "Well, Tony asked me to give other people a chance to talk, but I don't wanna!" then go right ahead and keep interrupting.  I don't think that'd call for moderation on my part.  Merciless mocking you would be way more fun and much more effective.

[LemmingLord]

Your boards, your fiat.  I was fairly sure you would use this tactic, as it was the only one left.  I just wanted to make sure that everyone sees you using your mod powers to insert yourself into my conversations while denying others the right to do the same to you in turn.  That what carried the day today wasn't reason, or persuasion, or being right or correct.  You get your way in this because you are the mod, regardless of how incorrect (imo) you are.

Since you are going off topic to discuss people rather than the issues at hand, I hope you won't mind an additional person butting in to your private conversation held in a public forum..hehehe

It is actually quite appropriate to discuss the power of our moderator; the question: "Does Capes Need a GM?" is very similiar to the question "Does the Capes Forum Need a Moderator?"

I think the answer to the first is, "No."
You play capes with the expectation that everyone you are playing with has a full partnership with what's going on; while I like the idea of electing someone as the rules expert of the group, capes is designed for people to step on one another's toes...Its the focus of the game. 

The answer to the second is,"Yes."
You join a forum with the expectation that people stay on topic and the only way to insure that is to give one or more users special authority.

Since Tony is the Mod around here and the designer of the game for which the forum was created, his authority may be prone to a certain amount of abuse.. Just as when you play an RPG with a GM they will be prone to abusing their power... These are the prices you have to pay.

On a similiar note, the price for hearing out everone's good ideas is sometimes to listen to people whine too much.  Waa waa waa, the moderator's abusing his powers... This may also happen in capes..  I've had my fellow players do the same thing, waa waa waa, that's not in the rules, my character should have been able to do that, my character could never have been surprised...waa waa waa.

I hope if I play capes with these kinds of players they will not whine so much since they are as empowered to take full responsibility for what occurs. 

[joshua neff]

Your boards, your fiat.

That's exactly right. This is Tony's forum (hosted benevolently by Ron and Clinton). Tony's under no obligation to provide a forum. He's under no obligation to answer people's questions, to respond to people's arguments, or to rise to the bait people dangle before him. Is it good business sense to provide a forum? Well, for most of commercial history, there was no such thing as a public forum where on could have conversations with the "owner" and business didn't seem to suffer from that lack. Of course, from a cluetrain perspective, it makes perfect sense these days to have a public forum in which the owner and/or employees of a business interact with their customers and speak in their normal voice (rather than in stilted, evasive "business-speak"). It seems to me, that's exactly what Tony (and the other mods on the Forge) are doing: holding conversations with their customers and speaking in their real voices.

But yes, this is essentially Tony's house. It runs by his rules. That's the price you pay by coming here.

But this is really off-topic for the thread. So, this should probably be dropped. (But in the end, that's up to Tony.)

[Tuxboy]

Quote from: Tuxboy on July 24, 2006, 10:34:01 AM
A: You're dead!
B: My body is crushed, but there is still a spark of life in me.
C: I'll wrap him in the Mystic Shroud of Hippocrates and rush him to the hospital!

Also, in truth if the player won a conflict that did indeed result in a death, for B to contest a spark of life remains is still significant retconning, it still negates the outcome that was narrated, and depending on the group, may indeed severely violate the social contract, no matter how clever and interesting it is.

In fact, that is the hope - you know you are retconning and that the other player will be pissed, but you hope the *way* you are retconning gets the other players on your side so that you can overturn the results of the other player's victory without being reprimanded by the social contract.

When you think about it, it feels a little slimey to me - like saying that being popular (for this retcom) means that the implicit social contract rules apply to you differently.  There's an inequality there that seems ugly to me.

The second example I gave was tied directly to the asshat resolution of a Conflict, like Goal: Captain Carbunkle tastes defeat, being narrated as "The building falls on the Captain, crushing him and killing him instantly" which is not the resolution of the tabled conflict.

If the popcorn throwing and "Stop being an asshat" comments didn't change the narration to something more acceptable then I would feel the retcon would be acceptable.

Under normal circumstances retcons do not happen with any frequency in the games I have played, and only in extreme circumstances or through particularly fine narration that takes the plot in interesting directions, and usually they are accompanied by a relevant Conflict.

[Tuxboy]

Well, I see a huge difference between:

1) Nekros kills Captain Alpha dead. Another player then brings Captain Alpha back later, with the explanation, "Yes, I was dead. But I went through a profound mystical journey through the Other Realm and realized my work here wasn't done. Now I've returned, but...changed."

...and...

2) Nekros kills Captain Alpha dead. The next scene, another player says, "I'm playing Captain Alpha." "But I killed him last scene!" "Yeah, whatever! The Capes rules don't say I can't do this, so I'm playing Captain Alpha--as if nothing had ever happened! Eat it, sucker!"

These are excellent examples of what I was saying.

The second is advanced asshattery and should not be tolerated...it may well be legal and valid by the literal interpretation of the rules but is certainly unacceptable in terms of the gaming experience.

The first takes the game in an interesting direction and even more so if played out through Conflicts and could really add hugely to the story and i for one would love to play the obstacles that the good Captain faces on his mystical journey.

Kindergarden "you're dead, no I'm not you are" arguments have no place round any gaming table and IME they rarely if ever happen round a Capes table, and if they do then the players are quite capable of dealing with it and solving the issue.

[TonyLB]

The second is advanced asshattery and should not be tolerated...it may well be legal and valid by the literal interpretation of the rules but is certainly unacceptable in terms of the gaming experience.

And, see, I feel totally empowered (by the rules and my own creativity) to deal with the second one, so it doesn't bother me.  After all, if the Capes rules give this guy the ability to say "Well, that wasn't really me that died," then they similarly give me the ability to say "Well, that isn't really you right in front of us."

"But ... I saw you die!  How can this be?" followed by "Goal:  Discover that the reborn Captain Alpha is actually a robot doppelganger created by Stagemaster," sounds like a fun way to play things.  Oh, the heart-break!  We thought we had him back, but now we must grieve him all over again!

If I can draw a distinction:  I think that the actual act of having the supposedly dead Captain Alpha walk back into the scene is morally neutral.  It's a perfectly workable development, of the type that comic book authors employ all the time.

The attitude of not giving a hoot about the contributions of other people is not real fun to play with.  But that attitude may be present, or may be absent, when a retcon occurs.  I don't worry about the retcon itself.  I worry about the attitude it may indicate.

[joshua neff]

The second is advanced asshattery and should not be tolerated...it may well be legal and valid by the literal interpretation of the rules but is certainly unacceptable in terms of the gaming experience.

And, see, I feel totally empowered (by the rules and my own creativity) to deal with the second one, so it doesn't bother me.  After all, if the Capes rules give this guy the ability to say "Well, that wasn't really me that died," then they similarly give me the ability to say "Well, that isn't really you right in front of us."

"But ... I saw you die!  How can this be?" followed by "Goal:  Discover that the reborn Captain Alpha is actually a robot doppelganger created by Stagemaster," sounds like a fun way to play things.  Oh, the heart-break!  We thought we had him back, but now we must grieve him all over again!

Tony, have you been reading old issues of Alpha Flight lately?

At any rate, that's a good point. Sindyr's arguments all seem to stem from "but what if someone I'm playing with is a jerk?" But the actual situation might very well be "what if everyone playing is trying to one-up each other, pushing each other to create a mad narrative?" No RPG needs a GM--that's a design choice (whether it was a conscious choice or an unconscious assumption that RPGs "should be" designed a certain way). Having a GM-player is just one way of distributing responsibility--it doesn't solve any problems in play, and it doesn't patch any perceived holes in the rules.

[Sindyr]

I will of course endeavor to follow your directive, as I have no choice, and not "insert" myself into these (private?) conversations.

Dude, of course you have a choice.  If I'd been modding you I'd have modded you.

If you're content to say "Well, Tony asked me to give other people a chance to talk, but I don't wanna!" then go right ahead and keep interrupting.  I don't think that'd call for moderation on my part.  Merciless mocking you would be way more fun and much more effective.

You are a vicious mocker dude - which is no small disincentive. ;)

OK, I heard what you were saying as "If you insert yourself, I will delete/mod the offending post"

I was wrong.

My apologies.

We have such fundamental and seemingly irreconciliable differences of opinion, approach, etc - but I gotta admit that although I am not sure you could play a Capes game with me without trying to make me suffer and enjoying the domination of the moment, you are not in any way, shape, or form the ordinary alpha male, although sometimes I perceive you that way. 

First of all you are about a million times more alpha then they.

But you continually surprise me be being a million times more fair as well.

Kudos to you.

[Sindyr]

[quote author=Tuxboy link=topic=20552.msg214286#msg214286 date=1153908877}
Under normal circumstances retcons do not happen with any frequency in the games I have played, and only in extreme circumstances or through particularly fine narration that takes the plot in interesting directions, and usually they are accompanied by a relevant Conflict.

Yes, I think that in most circumstances many people, and therefor, many groups feel that retconning is very against the Social Contract - and therefor, the SC being what it is, will tend to be supressed.  This is in my mind the SC adding a vital element that makes Capes playable - more than say what the SC adds to a monopoly game.

In other words, if you play Capes with monopoly's SC, *everyone* would be retconning, and the game would be broken.
If you play monopoly with Capes's SC, it would still work, as both SC's include an element of "follow the rules of the game."

In this way I say Capes needs the SC a lot more than monopoly.  After all, monopoly's ruleset does not encourage behaviour that would break the game without the SC, and Capes' does.

This is NOT a criticism, just a truth.  Capes is still a great game and I inted to play it weekly.  I repeat this for any who read into this that I am putting the game down, far from it.  I am embracing it, and to do that I need to see it clearly, warts and all.

[Hans]

If the popcorn throwing and "Stop being an asshat" comments didn't change the narration to something more acceptable then I would feel the retcon would be acceptable.

Yes....yes....keep using the term "popcorn throwing"...my worldwide fame as the coiner of a RPG term is nearly complete!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[Andrew Cooper]

If the popcorn throwing and "Stop being an asshat" comments didn't change the narration to something more acceptable then I would feel the retcon would be acceptable.

Yes....yes....keep using the term "popcorn throwing"...my worldwide fame as the coiner of a RPG term is nearly complete!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Actually, I have a set of over-sized dice that I use for this purpose.  They hurt worse than popcorn.