Where to start with an Idea?

[Steven Stewart]

Ron mentioned in the rules, if you are not sure how to do your post, reference your actual play and get to the point you want to discuss. Since this has turned out long, and after several hours of looking over it, still am having trouble trying to articulate my words, I will start with the simple and easy question first, and the more hemmoraging of words one second.

Question 1: When you have an idea, is it better to develop the idea into a framework that is somewhat playable, before asking for input, or is it better to share the idea in its infancy for feedback to test viability. In other words when is the right time to start asking for comments/inputs? At the very beggining, or when it is playtestable. [My background is multi-billion engineering projects where you get as much input from the very first inkling of an idea because it is much cheaper that way]

Question 2: Does anyone know if there something like I am trying to describe (in far too many words) out there already, seeing as there is no point to re-invent the wheel, or is the idea different enough from what is out there that it is worthwhile to develop it further?

If it is important for context, I am not saying different enough to be a commercial success, that is not my objective, my objective is to get a game that "does" what I am looking for below. By does what is out there already, I mean a game that won't require any signficant reworking of core aspects of the game such as  in-built setting, conflict resolution, definition of the characters, roles of players, etc.

[Another secret from the Big Companies, we don't do anything original if we don't have to. I think in terms of my RP expierence, if I don't need to write a game to get the game I want to play, then I don't think I would, I would buy that game instead, however, I don't know of a game that does all the following, but then my expierence is limited to my OLGS (which is 90%+ Japanese TRPG, and 10% English - guess which titles those are].


The Nascent Idea - (I call this nascent since I don't have good answers yet for the big three questions) The traditional games don't fit my needs anymore, but the other forms of gaming I am doing don't either. Lets eloborate on that further, and try to be specific to give some background (eloborated further in detail at the end of the post). In the last year my least rewarding expierence (to use a wise man's pharses my jollies/time expended) was trying to organize and run an Eberron Campaign for 3.5E. My highest rewarding expierence was playing a 15 minute game of Pirates of the Caribean and logging onto a MMORPG. But the highest Jollie/time expended didn't meet my need for actually having a story and characters, ie. no roleplaying and no story (well the MMORPG has a story, but it is fixed). But they do illustrate a key point that I liked as well as the different minature games/board games that I do like as well. (I realized after looking at the lenght of the Actual Play that lead to this idea could be relevant to people who want to know how I came to these conclusions, but I have put at the bottom of the post so you don't have to sift through it if you don't want to.)

My nascent idea is to make a game that:
(A) has little or no prep time ahed of the group meeting to play
(B) incorperates creative characters to tell a story (where all the players impact both the characters and the setting during the start of the game)
(C) somehow shares control of the GMing, so that it is a GM-ful game, but still uses  elements of DFK
(D) manages to capture the flavor of knights, and kings, and the overcoming of a world changing event (from the context of the characters, the King dying is a world changing event to the subjects of that world) - Scope could be ranging from the individual basis to the Kingdom wide basis depending on what the players wanted at the begining.
(E) tells a story that is remarkable enough that later on players will remember for the characters protrayed, the conflict that ensues and how they deal with world changing event.
(F) is replayable
(G) hopefully doesn't take an Epic season to play - rather more movie or single novel like where all characters are introduced and conflict resolved by the end of a single medium (2 hour movie, 300 page book) and not the typical RPG which is TV series orientated (never ending until ratings suck and it gets cancelled, perhaps some lame-ass attempt at resolution) or anthology orienented (good first book, sequels that do nothing). I see something that could be played in as short as 1 hour of play (after the creative part of generating world + characters) to something that could go for 5  to 10 hours over a few sessions (so like 4x2 hour sessions).

Background and previous Actual Play that lead to the nascent idea
Well my actual play is based primarly on the DnD franchise, or incarnations of it (meaning all the deriative stuff with a wide range of inbetween, from minature games like Silent Death, Warhammer, Pirates of the Cariabean, to SAGA Marvel, to 7th sea, to Exalted, etc. - the traditional RPG and minature style) as well as board games. As I get older, I find that Actual Play of those games is becoming weary. And have spent a lot more time on MMORPG to get my fix. Now I am going to broaden my horizons and try some of the independent press games, but that is a digression. 

As part of my actual play, there have been numerous times where I have delved into creating my own rules, or design, but could never really get any game groups to try them (and they were probably pretty half-baked, I see that now after spending a little time trying to understand  the Big Model). But I know what kind of games that I want to play. Now prior to seeing the forge, this would have gone no further, than a few scribbles on a piece of paper, and dreaming of someone else to come up with it. Now seeing the Forge, I can see the only downside to taking an idea and developing it further to be (A) investment in time and energy (this where I am right now, publishing is a big leap to someone like me (B) Possible ridicule. The upside is (A) potentially get a good game out of it (B) potentially be able to allow others to get a game of it if it is worth a hill of beans.

Good Gaming Expierence - the Pirates Games
What I like --> No prep time. The people show up, we play a game, have a good time, and then we go home and talk about it later.  Both the PoC and MMORPG don't require anyone to do loads of prepwork, which is only to be washed away when the first person jumps the tracks. No one has to be the GM. As a player in traditional games I am frustrated by my lack to do anything that amounts to a hill of beans outside the GM controlled story, as a GM I find myself uninentionally (every time no matter what I try) frustrated with the ratio of work I have to do to fun.

What I disliked --> no expenditure of a creative thought. I keep thinking who is the captain of my ship, why is a french and barbary pirate working together, what is their story?

Least Favorite Endevour
What I hated --> in the Eberron example there was loads of prep time, both the GM and players were frustrated nobody got what they wanted. Now I have read the discourse of GNS, and can see an element of what went wrong. But at the same even if there was an inifinite pool of players (which for many of us is a big problem, our pool of players consists of the three guys who answer your advert) and could get everyone on the same mind frame we could have made it work, but there is still a lot of prep involved. After many hours of play it all went phhheeww like air out of a ballon when the GM (me) got burned out, and there was very little story. Plus the extensive amount of rules and complexity.

Trying to go through all the "stuff" in the books to make sure that I didn't counter something that was inherent in the design of the setting. It felt like Work (which I hate).

Having a conflict of creative control over the story (I have read since then some of the theory, and understand to a great extent some of the root causes of this problem).

What I liked --> The stories that the Player's generated during character creation, I really liked what they created, even to the point of "creating" or "adding" to a very dense setting to start with their own ideas.

Exciting Game I got but will never ever play because, god how could I actually find the time to do the prep work and actually have a game with the system presented without it falling off the tracks in five minutes Game of Thrones RPG for GRRM series of books by GoO (a gift from a family member who knew I liked the books). Which is the real inspriration of my idea, how to take the core of that idea that is in that game (which is nothing to do IMHO about GRRM books which are good, but rather the universal theme that are contained within the books that go back to time eternal and the true "Romance" and "Myths" going all the way from Beowulf to LoTR. So there has to be a better widget to tell that story without that amount of setting and rules layered on each other. It is a beatiful book, but one that I believe is better for fireside reading than actual play. 

From the minatures games that I like - PoC and Silent Death - same things short prep time, not overly long and exhausting to play.

OK this is getting really long, so to those still with me, thanks, to everyone else my deepest apologies, I promise to try to get better about making a point.

As a final note, those who have seen where my posting count lies will know that I have shown a great interest in Polaris. that interest is because of the games I know of I think it meets what I am looking for the closest, and will be a very cool thing to play. However, I also know that it is set to tell a very specific kind of story (or least it is a tragedy) and I also want something that is less setting dependent, and doesn't have a fixed outcome. I also have enough respect for that product to (A) not try to modify to fit my needs (B) acknowledge that many of the core concepts are similar to what I am looking for. If that is a problem, please let me know.

Cheers for now,

Here is me pushing the post button very tentatively....

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Steven,

I appreciate your attention to the actual play request. It may not be apparent, but there is no way I could have replied to your questions without reading that.

When to post for feedback? It's totally up to the person in question. There is no single-way answer. I can cite just as many successes and failures of the one sort, here at the Forge, as of the other sort.

The real answer is that you must honestly assess your own mental and creative state to see whether you need feedback, as opposed merely to needing attention, which is the primary pitfall for this particular community.

I'll quote your design goals in full only because I like them so much.

My nascent idea is to make a game that:
(A) has little or no prep time ahed of the group meeting to play
(B) incorperates creative characters to tell a story (where all the players impact both the characters and the setting during the start of the game)
(C) somehow shares control of the GMing, so that it is a GM-ful game, but still uses  elements of DFK
(D) manages to capture the flavor of knights, and kings, and the overcoming of a world changing event (from the context of the characters, the King dying is a world changing event to the subjects of that world) - Scope could be ranging from the individual basis to the Kingdom wide basis depending on what the players wanted at the begining.
(E) tells a story that is remarkable enough that later on players will remember for the characters protrayed, the conflict that ensues and how they deal with world changing event.
(F) is replayable
(G) hopefully doesn't take an Epic season to play ... I see something that could be played in as short as 1 hour of play (after the creative part of generating world + characters) to something that could go for 5  to 10 hours over a few sessions (so like 4x2 hour sessions).

That is a powerful, useful, and wonderful set of design specs. I suggest that you borrow as liberally as you like from game texts which do inspire you (e.g. Polaris), and not worry for one minute about reinventing the wheel or originality or anything like that.

Right now, you are merely considering writing a game. That's a lot on your plate, so never mind secondary issues. Use what's there in your mind and what's there in texts that inspire you. Long experience has taught me that the process of game design, especially playtesting, will render these influences only into influences, and not plagiarism.

For some comparative game experiences and texts which meet most of these except for (E), I suggest the following:

InSpectres (doesn't match D, otherwise spot-on)
The Shadow of Yesterday (doesn't match A, but hits really hard on several of the others; the strongest for D)
Primetime Adventures (doesn't match D, but it could)
My Life with Master (doesn't match D, but it could, in a wonderful/horrible way)
The Shab-al-Hiri Roach (doesn't match D, but doesn't need to)
Legends of Alyria (strong for all specs, but highly setting-specific)

All of these can be found in the specialty forums here at the Forge.

If you're willing to try something without a safety net, then your first stop should be James V. West's games, The Pool and its relative, The Questing Beast.

The Pool requires a tad more preparation time than I think you've described, but on the other hand, I'm talking about an hour depending on one's GMing skills, and not one bit of it is wasted. The Questing Beast is, based on your specs, going to be your loving huggle-bunny.

Now I'm going to tease you. Many people don't understand my sense of humor, so that's fair warning.

I can see the only downside to taking an idea and developing it further to be (A) investment in time and energy (this where I am right now, publishing is a big leap to someone like me (B) Possible ridicule. ...

Heh ... I'm tempted to suggest that you undergo some kind of intensive ridicule experience about something that matters greatly, and then you'll find that any ignorant or knee-jerk ridicule about your game design is pretty paltry in comparison. The only feedback you need to notice is critical, thinking, and committed to your success – even the harshest response is useful, in this context.

Which is my insensitive way of saying "Screw'em! Let's see some game!"

Best, Ron

[Kesher]

Howdy.

Well, Ron beat me to your post while I was mucking around looking for games to suggest.  He's right about your design specs, and I'll add only two games to his list:

Art, Grace and Guts, which might take some tinkering for D and E, but hits everything else pretty well.

1001 Nights, which doesn't hit D and E so much, but will probably give you some really good ideas.  Well, maybe it does hit E, though not really the "world-changing" part...

I also heartily recommend The Questing Beast; it rawks!  Once you look at it, you'll even get Ron's punnish metaphor :)

And "screw 'em" indeed...

Aaron

[Mike Sugarbaker]

First, just nitpicking: you mean Pirates of the Spanish Main, the WizKids game with the little ships, right?

Second, I can't believe no one has mentioned The Princes' Kingdom. I think it could hit your D & E almost dead on, with not more than 30 minutes of prep for a session (if that).

[Steven Stewart]

Thanks to Ron, Aaron, and Mike for their helpful replies, espically if mentioning some games that meet the "functional spec" as it were. I think probably the best to thing to do right now, is to go and look at these others games to see if they meet what I need, and if not then toy around with some ideas as Ron mentioned. So if you don't see me posting a lot of ideas, it is probably cause I am working slow and steady to try to get an idea into the right shape, I don't think I need the feedback at this time with just this idea, I think it would more useful when I actually try to put some flesh on the bone so speak.

We have in our industry a cycle of development, starting with Concept (the 50,000 foot level, it is something like the "functional spec I mentioned), then we have what is called FEED, Front End Engineering Development, it is a bunch of studies and options looking at all aspects of the design (I don't have a good enough lexicon, but say for example a FEED study for game design would be what mechanic to use to acheive that specific objective). Then we develop a bid-package (which would be like a playtest model), then we bid it and then we go into detail design and construction. While the analogy breaks down, it is useful for me personally, I am still in concept, I need to get a few FEED studies first.

Thanks for all the help,

Steven Stewart

[Steven Stewart]

Just an FYI...because of a twist that my proposed after reading an article in Harpers about the Peak Oil movement (which is something I know a little bit about ;) and the fact that the particular journalist took an interesting spin that the Peak Oil is the liberals version of "the end of days" or "left behind", it got me thinking about Big Events, and how not just the event but the predication of an event impacts a society and the people in it.

One important point - this is the kernel of an idea mentioned as the source for an idea for a game, and listed as a "hmm...that's interetsing" persepctive, and not an inventation for a policitcal discussion.

Anyway, it means that I think that after reading several of the games Ron mentioned, there is enough merit to me for this idea to get out of the first gate (in our industry all projects go through gates, which ironically you decide if you can go through the gate after an IPR - not Indie Press Revolution, but Independent Project Review).

http://blamdesign.blogspot.com/

The output of that effort is located here - nothing fancy - just a free sort of space to put text. There may be better ways, but I want to focus energy on design not on presentation of design just yet (we are not at that Gate yet). Nor will find a journal dictating my thoughts or how I am stuck or any such hooey. What you will find is deliverables. Another term from engineering. Deliverables are documents. Documents that can be used for something. A deliverable can be anything from a Project Objective Statement (which may not seem like it does anything, but would be the equivalent of the big three, answer those and you have some idea of where you are going, if you don't you shouldn't be out of the gate. So while some of these deliverables like a functional spec and the big three may seem to navel gazing, I don't think they are. I think they are tools for laying the foundation of other deliverables.

I guess that is wordy enough. Thanks to all for the above posts they are mucho useful. I hope that one day I will get my own IPR  (i.e playtest) but that gate is far away right now, I need to get out the next one first.

As always, cheers for now,

Tokyo Steve