[Agon] Under Consideration: Helping dice that really help

[John Harper]

Here's a rule that I'm seriously considering for a Semi-Official Rules Change.


Advantage, Helping, & Creative Ability Dice

When you use an Advantage die, a Helping die, or a Creative Ability die, the die is not rolled with the other dice in your pool. Instead, roll it seperately, and consult this table:

Roll  (Bonus)
1-3    (+1)
4-6    (+2)
7-9    (+3)
10-12  (+4)

The bonus is added to the result of your roll. Bonus dice bought with divine favor (+1d6 and +1d8) work this way, too.


With this system, helping dice always really help you, with at least a +1 to your result. I think this will really put an end to any kind of whiff that may linger in the game. The exact makeup of the table may need tweaking (I also considered die roll divided by two) but I think the idea is sound.

As a secondary part of this, I'd like to adopt Darren's idea that Advantage dice impair each time they are used (and can't be refreshed). This neatly takes care of the problem of how long they linger and how often they can be used.

Thoughts?

[Darren Hill]

Sounds interesting.
Regarding the first part, the table of +1 to +4:
What if you, say, roll a 4, then get a helping d12 and roll 12: would you be able to use the best of the two options (and now have a result of 12, which you could spend DF to roll-up), or would you have to take the 8?
I can see either way being reasonable - in the latetr case, you pay a price for the guaranteed benefit that helping gives.
Using enough helping dice on a single roll, you'd be able to achieve any target - a group that is used to taking lots of interludes might get a decent jump in power.

Personally I might go for a simpler system:
When you call the helping die, if it is lower than the current roll, you get a +1.
So, if you have rolled, say, a 2 and a 4, so your current roll is 4. someone Helps and rolls a 3. Your roll is now 5. Someone else helps and rolls a 4. Your result is now 6. Someone else helps and rolls a 12. Your result is now 12. (Or, for added fiddliness, your result is now 14, because you have two +1's). 

About the Advantage Dice Impairing (which I think Ralph suggested first), it sounds good to me. I was about to suggest a different version in that other thread, but I like this impairment version better. In fact, I love it, especially when compaired with some variant of the rules above, so those d6 advantages can always be counted on for +1's.

I take it this applies also to the d6, d8, and rerolls you might get from Divine Favour?

(For posterity, the rule I was going to suggest:
Advantage Dice can be used once each Exchange of a Battle, rather than once per Battle.
I was hesitating suggesting this, because those d10 ones become very very beneficial.)

[Darren Hill]

Oops - ignore my divine favour question ;)

[John Harper]

Darren, your questions are confusing things for me.

The system works as written above. With this rule there is no other way to read Advantage, Helping, or Creative dice. They generate a bonus to your roll, that's it.

[iago]

My one question is whether or not this is *too much* of a fix; even a +1 is pretty significant in this game, and the lowly d4 being able to produce a +2 is  a little, hm, startling?  Keeping in mind that a +2 is something you primarily see as half of someone's heroic attribute.

I dig the whole goal of reducing whiff factor, but at the same time, I don't want to make things too easy, get me?  This could easily go into territory where the bonus is large enough that there's no point in rolling -- the opposition simply won't be able to generate a number higher than (1+bonus) on its dice.

[John Harper]

Yeah, I'm afraid of that too, Fred. I want to dial in the numbers so they make sense.

Maybe the spread is different:

Roll  (Bonus)
1-5    (+1)
6-9    (+2)
10-12  (+3)


Getting warmer, maybe.

[iago]

Mm, I get what you're getting at -- the maximum of one die is where the breakpoints are at -- but I'm not sure that's it yet, either.  Though maybe that's because I don't otherwise see the "pattern" in it...

Though, heh. There it is.  if I don't look at the range, but just the breakpoints, I can see...

Helping grants a +1; if the die rolls 6+, +2; if the die rolls 10+, +3

Somehow that presentation clicks more for me, though I can't readily quantify why.  The reasoning for the breakpoints certainly stands out more for me when I don't present it as a range-of-results-means-plus-blah table...

[Darren Hill]

In the hope of being a bit clearer than last time, here are my thoughts.

Thoughts on the Proposed Semi-Official Rule

• I like the range of both tables (+1 to +3, and +1 to +4) - they both make each helping die size different. Choosing to use a d8 will be done for different reasons than rolling a d6, for example.
• Like Fred, I'm concerned about the size of the bonus. Getting a guaranteed +1 isn't too bad, but having a good chance of getting a bigger bonus is risky. The second table is better here.
• Converserly, I'm also concerned about the smallness of the bonus. At present, the main thing I've seen d10 abilities used for is to try to increase a roll by a lot. (Say, you roll a 3, and need a 9.) Under this system, high dice are a lot less help in such cases. The only way to do it is to chain several traits together. I think this is a bad effect, but not hugely so, especially since when you need that 9, and you're willing to pay for it (or make others pay for it), you can guarantee you'll get it with this rule. The gambling element is hugely diminished. The benefits to this approach (quick, simple) may compensate. Plus, the whiff factor is most frustrating at the low end were your trying to turn a 3 into, say, a 4 or 5, and failing. At those close margins this system shines.
• There'll be fewer roll-ups, maybe a lot fewer. At present, you might end up rolling 4 or more dice on a single task, all of which can qualify for the roll-up option. Now only two dice will, and they'll often be ones that are less likely to give a roll up (helping die d6 = 1/6th, using your main ability: 1/10th). It's a matter of taste whether this is good or bad.
• With this system, you don't need a special "D4 helping traits don't grant or cancel oaths" rule. There's less of a need for higher oath prices for the high traits either (especially with the second table), since even when the players are rolling d10, they'll be expecting to get a 1-5 for +1. :)
• My first thought, after my experience with a Strong-Limbed NPC, was that this would lead to longer battles because NPCs will benefit too. I now think that's wrong. Since Heros usually outnumber NPCs, it will more likely lead to shorter battles, with fewer resources used. Only playtesting will see whether this is a noticeable or safely-ignorable effect.

My Proposed House Rule
I did also suggest an alternative and mention it in case it got lost in the confusion above.

• Uses the rule that exists in the text.
• If the helping die doesn't help, add +1.

This rule is simple, it works with the text as listed, but keeps the gambling element of using high dice for high rolls, while still eliminating the whiff factor at low margins. It's not as quick as the above rule, though. (It has most of the other pros and cons of the above rule, like potentially leading to shorter, lower-resource battles.)
To be honest, I'm not sure which of the two approaches I prefer (John's or mine),  but since this one was one I'd thought after playing the first time, and it does have distinct advantages of its own, I thought I may as well mention it. It can be safely ignored now :)

[Valamir]

Hmmm.   Ok this is going in the opposite direction as I've been...fewer dice, more modifiers instead of fewer modifiers more dice...but it could work as well. Instead of eliminating the problem modifiers you're making them so common as to no longer be a problem.

The "speed things up and keep them moving" part of me says to skip rolling the advantage/helping dice and looking up on a table altogether.  Just go with a fixed bonus based on die size.  Need an extra +2, Impair a d8.  Need a +3 Impair a d10.  d4s would be 0 representing a minimal ability that can be rolled in a test but too puny to offer any help...that would prevent d0 stats.

But I'm not sure the issues really need this radical of a change yet.

[John Harper]

Sorry, Darren. I missed your house rule proposal the first time. I actually like it a lot. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Darren Hill]

You're welcome, John. I think the biggest benefit of my house rule suggestion is you don't have to agonise over building a table of the correct mapping of die size to modifiers, it just uses the already playtested mechanics with a small modifier.

Ralph: I was a bit worried about the d4 being dropped to zero, but the only time its come up in my three sessions so far it was not a problem. In the two player game I ran last night, one of the characters had impaired his Hunting to zero, and then the duo had to make a Harmful Obstacle Contest of Hunt, to traverse the "Iron Forest" safely. His automatic result of zero was amusing, and did lead to his companion Helping him through the woods.
I can foresee situations where I ask, "Okay, does anyone have a zeroed out trait." "Yes, I have Spirit." "Okay, <thinks> and so, the Shade of Protus appears before you, a frightening figure. We have a contest of Spirit!" (and impairing my own Grace as I dodge hurled dice.)

[Valamir]

The avoiding of d0 traits was more of a side effect than a reason. 

In my "fixed bonus by die type" table I went with d4 =0, d6 = +1, d8=+2, d10=+3 because then a d8 would be twice as good as a d6 and d10 three times as good. 

If you go with d4=+1, d6=+2, d8=+3, d10=+4, then a d8 is only 50% better and the d10 only twice as good as the d6. 

The first scale seemed at first blush to better award high individual stats...and as a side effect making it pointless to impair d4 stats.

But again  I think its a pretty radical change.

Your +1 if the die didn't help. is a less radical change.  I think that would help alot with the feeling of whiff because at least every effort gets you marginally closer to where you need to be without completely changing the whole structure of the game.  I hate changing too much at the same time, but I'm tempted to try this on Friday and see how it goes.

[John Harper]

I'd like to ask everyone currently running an Agon game to try out Darren's method in your next game:

If you roll an Advantage, Creative, or Helping die, you may either take the result of the die as your new result, or add +1 to your total.

Heroic traits still apply as normal. So, if you are Strong-Limbed and you use your Might as a creative ability, if you don't like the result, you could add +3 to your total.

I'm not playing Agon at the moment, so I don't have a group to test with. If you folks would be kind enough to test this out and report back, I'd appreciate it.

[Darren Hill]

I might be playing again this Monday and the following one. If so I'll be sure to test it out.

[Valamir]

As I think more on this and reflect where and why the actual groan moments in our game were, I'm thinking this would have been a huge benefit to the feel of things.  It likely would have led to more use of Creative Abilities, players were loathe to Impair with only a 1 in 8 chance of seeing any benefit, it would have let to more use of the lesser Abilities...sure its only a d6, but most likely I'll at least get a +1 out of it...and it would have given some benefit even to abysmal die rollers like Crystal:-).

I'll try this out on Friday.

To be clear what we're looking at is:
1) Name dice, Antagonist Assigned Free Ability Die, Weapons Dice rolled and read as normal.
2) Creative Ability dice, Advantage Dice, Helping Dice (for or from Oaths) provide a +1 each if they are not otherwise used as the "Result" die.