airing out the idea for a new supers game

[sean2099]

While I am awaiting feedback on a different game, I thought that I would put out some beginning thoughts to a new supers game I am working on (working title: Heroes and Villians)

Heroes and Villians

supers game where every power has a price. Each power has a use and temptation of abuse.  For instance, every time a character flies, they are compelled to shirk their responsibilities.  If they don't shirk them, then they gain a temptation point.  The villian can use these points to pay for their own powers.  Villians gain guilt points every time they use their powers to commit crimes.  The guilt points allows a hero to use their power without accuring temptation points and vice versa.

Exhaustion:

Hero has 5 temptation points and villian has 2 guilt points.  The hero and villian bid (up to the amount of guilt points for villian and up to amount of temptation for hero.)  The villian chooses to bid zero points to go first.  The hero bids one temptation point and subtracts it from their total because they feel heroic at that moment. Having zero temptation or guilt points means the hero or villian is exhausted.  They are literally too tired to care.

Temptation points:

Every time a hero uses their powers, they are tempted in various ways.  Sometimes, it is shirk their responsiblities.  They feel that they should have lives of their own, seperate from their heroic persona (shirk responsibility).  Other times, they feel like they should take justice in their own hands (vigilante).  Some feel like criminals do not deserve to live (revenge).  Some can't take the pressure of being a hero, so they have some sort of coping mechanism to deal with the pressure (addiction).  Finally, there are a few heros who become cocky with the fame and noterity that comes from being a well-known celebrity (arrogance). 

All heroes have powers of one type or another.  The more useful the power, the more temptation that comes with it.  For example, super running is useful but not as useful as super speed.  Therefore, super speed generates more temptation than super running.

Different people respond to stress differently.  Some people can handle different types of pressures better than other kinds of pressure.  This idea is illustrated through the temptation scale.  This scale measures how quickly or slowly a particular form of temptation works on them.  It measures their resistance to temptation via addiction, arrogance, revenge, shirking responsibility, and vigilantism.  Higher scores in each type of temptation means they are less likely to be tempted and if they are tempted, it will have less effect and/or have a shorter duration.

Temptation points are a double edged sword.  More temptation points means the hero have been active.  They are prepared in terms of mindset, etc.  They are tougher to defeat when they are ready.  However, they are also on the brink of giving in to their temptation.  Villians can take advantage of this (ie use higher cost powers without incurring guilt points.)  Villians can also force the hero to cash in some of those points, making them give into one temptation.  For example, the Human Hammer (hero) has built up seven temptation points.  His weak point is arrogance (rating 4).  Rusthand (villian) can force him to cash in four temptation points and engage in arrogant behavior.  The Human Hammer decides some fans come up to him and want his autograph.  He holds an impromptu autograph session, tying him up for three hours while Rusthand plots and schemes.

If the Human Hammer only had three temptation points, then he could not be tempted with arrogance.  However, since the temptation points also serves as a "hit point" measurement, one well placed blow could exhaust the hero. 

Example of power structure

Offensive Power

Blast (form)
Temptation (any other than shirk responsibility)

A form of energy comes from a source named by the player and does damage to their opponent.  The player is allowed to describe incidential effects, appearance, source, etc. 

Villians lose a number of guilt points equal to the blast power rating.  The hero gains an equal number of points in a temptation group to be named by the villian that was attacked.

Giving In Table

1 one day      6 one hour
2 twelve hours 7 30 minutes
3 six hours    8 15 minutes
4 three hours  9 10 minutes
5 two hours    10  5 minutes

Spirit of the Game

The goal of the game is about the temptation superheroes experience because of their powers.  It is also about the guilt super-villians face when using their powers for selfish ends.  Heroes and Villians are humanized in this game.  They are more than a collection of skills and powers.

Questions/Comments

1.  I am a little tired here...I have a feeling I have some kind of feedback loop but I am not seeing it.  Does anyone see one here?

2.  Am I reinventing a game?  I have played Champions, DC Heroes, the old Marvel game by TSR and a little COH but I have not had a chance to look at Capes, for instance.

3.  Any comments, questions or prompts are appreciated.

Thanks,

Sean

[daMoose_Neo]

However, since the temptation points also serves as a "hit point" measurement, one well placed blow could exhaust the hero.

This, confuses me. You have a good build up: Hero uses powers, nets temptation points, Villian jumps onto the scene and uses Temptation to distract the Hero while powering up his super death gun ("You know you want a normal life, Captain Amazo...just think of what it could offer you! Why, you and that sweet young girl might even still be together if it weren't for your powers forcing you out onto the streets every night..." *humming behind him*). Villian blasts at hero, Hero earns Guilt which makes him sit up and say "But Jenny would NEVER be safe with madmen like you running around!"  and pummels him without acquiring any new Temptation points because he's doing something specifically to pummel a villain, not just flying around. Cool.

Temptation as hit points though? Temptation is earned by power use, correct? If so, then theoretically before it hits that big fat 0 I can activate my powers and be a super badass, generate a bunch of Temptation but still "survive". Yes? This gives the villians more options, but still...I dunno, I don't know if I like that aspect.

[TonyLB]

It is a little odd from a strategic point of view.

Say Hammer has five temptation points.  The villain forces him to cash in four of them to be Arrogant and gloat about what a superior hero he is.  Said villain then taps him lightly with a feather.  Hammer takes one temptation point of damage and falls down, exhausted.

Is that how it's supposed to play?

[Ken]

I don't mind the Temptation = Hit Points so much. But it would probably work better, if it were simply a bonus and not the sole source of a character's staying power.

Core concpet sounds cool. The powers sound pretty rules light to me. Is that right?

Keep it up,

Ken

[sean2099]

Thanks for the replies so far...

Here is a short imaginary play session.  I think this will clear a few things up.  Assuming each of them have 10 temptation points when events start.

Characters:

Hammer:  The hero.  He is a classic slugger, able to fight multiple opponents with his hands and feet.  He is tired of the criminal element ruining the lives of those he loves.  Between the stray bullets and kids straying from the straight and narrow, our hero has the following stats.

Powers:  Attack (martial artist) 3:  able to fight multiple opponents, perform moves that defy physics, chose how opponent is damaged.  Defense (Dodge) 2:  Able to dodge ranged weapons, seize initiative

Temptations:  Addiction: 6, Arrogance 5, Revenge 5, Shirk Responsibility 6, Vigilantism 3

"Rusty":  The Villain.  He is able to manipulate the environment in specific ways. To "rusty", destroying is "renewal on the cheap" and "a calling for heroes."  Becoming a supervillian transcend the mundune aspects of the world and brings mankind to a new age...one where the books and comics of the previous age were prophetic.

Powers:  Environmental Manipulation (Destructive Touch) 4:  able to control destruction (fine level detail), really great at destroying metal, can still destroy other items, can turn power on and off.  Defense 1 (Destructive touch):  projectiles melt before damage takes place.

Temptation:

Addiction 4, Guilt 4, Revenge 6, Soft Spot (children) 4, Shirk Duties 7

Scene: 

Hammer, through listening to police frequencies, has heard of a bank robbery where the vault doors simply melted.  Following a series of clues and beating a few people up, he has located the hideout..which is simply an apartment building.

Hammer player:  I am going to bash in the door with one kick.

GM:  Ok, the door is actually reinforced.  You can kick in but you will have to use your martial artist power and gain three temptation points.

Hammer:  Ok.

GM:  The door splits into two pieces and fly across the room.  Rusthand and his mooks are counting their money and splitting their takes.  He looks up and says, "Give the hero his measure."  Rusthand is cashing in three of your temptation points to make you attack the mooks and apprendend them.

Hammer: I'll go ahead and attack them since he is appealing to vigilantism. 

GM:  Rusthand sits back for a bit and watches you kick the c*** out of them.  You would have to use your martial artist power twice to defeat the five mooks.

Hammer:  I am moving around, hitting each of them before they can hit me.  I pick up one of the guys and throws into two of the others.  I finish attacking and I know that I just got 6 more temptation points.

GM:  Rusthand claps his hands..."Good job, young man.  I think it's time to feel the pain though."  He tries to slap you but you block it.  As you block, you cry out in pain.

Total points, Rusthand 10, Hammer 12 (10 from before the encounter, +9 for power usage, -3 for story event, -4 for the destructive touch)

Hammer:  Our struggles have woken a child up.  He walks into the room wide-eyed at the carnage.

GM:  "Low blow."  Rusthand walks up to the kid and whispers to him.  "We're just playing...better go back to your room before Miss Smith gets mad at us."

Child:  "Why's the door broken?"  (Rusthand loses 4 guilt points since Hammer invoked his soft spot.)

Rusthand:  "We're just remodeling.  Go back to bed, ok."

Child: Ok.

GM:  As the child walks away, Rusthand whispers, "So, you are just going to let the child walk all by himself.  You know, this is not a good neighborhood.  In fact, I have heard of childing disappearing in this area."  He is appealing to shirking...give up the battle to protect the child...for the next hour.

Hammer:  I glare at him and decide to walk the child back to his apartment.  Before I do, I invoke guilt by telling him, "If you were a real man, you would take him back up and then turn yourself in."   I watch over him as he settles into bed.  The apartment is in shambles.  His father is sleeping next to an empty bottle of tequila and his mother is nowhere to be seen.  I read him a couple of bedtime stories and spend the rest of the hour watching him sleep before leaving. 

GM:  Rusty twinges at the comment even though he forces himself to smirk confidently at Hammer.  Rusty watches Hammer take the child back up and then goes to the local pub and spends the next three hours drinking away his guilt.  He feels bad because he sacrificed his men just to see Hammer in action and because he used a child to escape from the battle.

Point Total:  Rusthand 2, Hammer 6

I know this isn't a perfect example but I thought it is good enough to clear away a few things and suggest rules additions for the future.

A couple of ideas I am toying with...1. if you have initiative and use a power or invoke a temptation, then the opponent can either accept your pronouncement and get initiative or reject it, come up with his own idea (ie still has to come with how power used against them or how they are tempted) but the first player still has initiative.

2.  If you appeal to temptation, you have to burn one temptation point (?)

I am trying to avoid having a "health" attribute but I will have to do some thinking as TonyLB and daMoose_Neo.  As for powers, as you can see, I want to come up with a few categories like attack, defense, environmental changes, self changes...maybe other categories.  Then, for every point placed, then you can pick a category and come up a with a short phrase that describes the power.  Or you can spend another point and pick another category/phrase.

For mook fights, for every point in an attack you possess...you defeat one mook.  For every power that can be used for defense, you block one mook...for every mook that attacks without you defending...you lose one temptation point or the main villian gains one point...villian's choice.   Therefore mooks delay...allowing the villian time to prepare.

That's all for now.

[daMoose_Neo]

Well, I don't think you need to actually describe each and every class of power- a broad scale and GM discretion should work just fine. Is the power strong or weak/minor? Is the power direct/specific or is it environmental/broad? This gives the character a chance to be more original than say CoH's classes.
And right now, I don't see how Guilt is an actual feature. The Hero essentially activated a power, mechanically speaking. To offer a small suggestion, "Guilt" could be used to lower ones own Temptation. The Hero loses temptation by stinging the Villian with that action/remark- he loses it because it justifies his own position in his mind and says "Yea, I'm a good person, I'm doing right".

[Ken]

Sean-

Just from reading the combat scenerio you posted, I'm curious: what is your combat mechanic? Dice? Narrative? I'm assuming its random, but wasn't sure from what you posted. If combat success is randomly determined, then invoking Temptations seems really powerful.

When Rusthand sent his goons after Hammer, Hammer's bent towards Vigilanteism did more damage to him than the actual thugs. I think thats cool, but wondering why use powers at all, when you can just batter your opponents' will to go on. Is there a limit or controlling factor here?

Like what you have so far,

Ken

[TonyLB]

Sean:  Do you expect most conflicts to end in the way you've described?  People decide to call the whole thing off short of the final show-down, because other things in the environment are more important to them, and they're just sick of the whole mess?

[sean2099]

In answer to your questions and prompts...

To my understanding of the terms, the powers are narrative in nature.  The number and name of the power is another tool for the player to use.  Not all powers are direct in nature...Flying around would potentially build up "currency", which in this game is Temptation ('Guilt' for villians) and perhaps another currency...such as Resolve. 

Tangent:  Resolve is the yin to the yang of Temptation.  Whenever a power is used in a heroic manner, then the player has the choice gains an equal amount of temptation and resolve or they can choose to have a zeron sum action, in which no temptation or resolve is gained...toying with this next part but if power is not used for heroic purpose, then temptation is gained but no resolve.  Oh, and resolve would work as part of the "hit point" equation.  The use of resolve can also lower temptation on a one on one basis.

Back to the main topic, power rating are used in comparsion with each other if needed...I know this has karma elements but I thought it could come in useful.  The direct use of powers would affect the will to go on as much as any actual damage. 

In addition, although I may not have illustrated this too well, the player can't appeal to the same weakness more than once in the same scene.  He or she can use powers more than one per scene.  Mooks have no temptation or weakness score...only powers and direct action affect them.  Granted, powers can knock out quite a bit of them in one turn.

I like the idea of strong/weak, direct/environmental look on powers.  I was trying to do that with allowing the player to add one descriptative phrase for every point placed in a power. 

On another subject, I am looking at the hero/villian exchange as a series of escalations.  They fought with actions and by bringing in story elements with the cashing in of temptation points in the example.  Anyone can withdraw at any time but the other side gets one last shot in before the exchange is over.  So, no...I can't see every exchange ending that way but I could see someone withdrawing if they were losing the fight.

All for now...

Thanks,

Sean

[sean2099]

Character Creation (partially thought out)

I have intended for the character creation to focus on the backstory and bio of the hero rather than their powers.  The former should take far more time than the latter, INHO.

So, here it goes.

Name:  (self explainatory)

Appearance:  Written details about looks or if you can draw, skip this section.

Biography:  General life details

Origins/Superhero:  How you obtained powers or have lived with them?

Powers:  The hero can choose to have one strong power (rating 5) or two weaker powers (rating 2).  The ratings determine how much temptation and resolve is generated.  They also measure how much temptation/resolve the opponent loses.  Finally, if these powers are opposed in some way, then a karmic measurement (whoever has the higher rating wins) is available.  Combatants could choose to spend resolve points if they wanted to raise their score for one round.  Otherwise GM and player discretion is what matters. 

The player can determine if their abilities are direct/specific (the power works in a certain way and affects one target or self) or environmental/broad (powers affect the environment or target multiple people).  They can insert whatever incidential details they like but the GM may determine such things as effects that are questionable.

Resolve/Temptation:  10/10 (starting both scores at an equal amount)

Temptation Scale:  Addiction:  , Arrogance  , Revenge  , Shirk Responsibility  , Vigilantism [The player has 25 points to fill in the blanks.  They can have 5s in all of their score or decide to calculate some other total.  The scores serve as a 'tipping point.'  For instance, if the player decides to have 5s in everything, then an opponent could choose to use a temptation if the player has 5 or more temptation points.  If that happened, the opponent could add a story element involving that temptation for a period up to two hours.  For instance, if the opponent wanted to use Revenge against the player, then they could state that the class bully starts to pick a fight with the hero.  The hero loses five temptation points, deals with the problem and then has the intiative (I).  The hero could also change the story but they would still lose five temptation points and the opponent still has the (I).

On another subject, I am toying with the idea of allowing the player at character creation to trade temptation scale (the 25 points mentioned) for powers on a 5/2 basis.  What I mean is if the player trades 5 points in(only has 20 temptaion scale points), they would have 7 power points.  Vice versa, they could chose to only have 2 powers points but have 30 temptation points.

Hopefully, the rambling make sense.

Sean

[Ken]

Could you give an example on how you see Resolve working in relation to Temptation? Can a character spend resolve to keep from giving in to temptation (a slippery slope)? I'm a little lost, but I think I know what you're getting at. Also, is their a randomizing mechanic (or risk, or immediate detriment to you) in invoking an opponent's Temptatioins, or is it always automatic? While its a neat idea (and certainly has enough supporting instances in the comics... in fact, it has a heavy silver and modern age Marvel feel to me), I'm wondering what keeps a game from turning into a temptation-fest, or maybe thats your idea. I realize that once your Temptation score is low, fewer temptations will have a low enough rank to be invoked, but by that point a character seems pretty easy to take out...again, maybe your plan.

Keep it up,

Ken

[sean2099]

Hey Ken,

You gave me more food for thought.  I think resolve could be used to resist temptation.  i.e.  My character just appealed to your addiction of wealth (greed).  I used four of your temptation points to create a bit where I pull out a large amount of money from my wallet and for you to look the other way. 

You decide that you do not want to give in.  You spend four resolve points and wave away the money.  You spent resources and slipstepped the temptation.  However, I still have intiatative and I could appeal to a different temptation, use my powers or whatever. 

I envisioned the temptations as a way for players to interject their thoughts into the storys and to illustrate the point that power has a price.  If I had a limiter at this point, it would be that once an opponent accepted a temptation from you...it would be their turn.  This particular area would not be solved, inho, until playtesting took place.  Perhaps or perhaps on the temptation "stopsign."

For the last point, it would depend on how active the opponent has been.  If they have been on a destruction spree, then they would have a huge buildup of temptation and resolve.  Temptation could distract the opponent but not knock them out by a long shot.

Ideas:

I just came up with the idea that players, as a group, could only appeal to a particular temptation once per scene.  That would slow things down a bit but it neutralize some of the 'numbers' game...which, in turn, may or may not be a good thing.

[Ken]

You decide that you do not want to give in.  You spend four resolve points and wave away the money.  You spent resources and slipstepped the temptation.  However, I still have intiatative and I could appeal to a different temptation, use my powers or whatever. 

I just came up with the idea that players, as a group, could only appeal to a particular temptation once per scene.  That would slow things down a bit but it neutralize some of the 'numbers' game...which, in turn, may or may not be a good thing.

Also, maybe once you've appealed to an opponents temptation (and its been resisted or resolved), doing it again is tougher. Maybe the ranks of their individual temptation categories are temporarily doubled for the purpose of fitting under their current Temptation score; the number of Temptation points it burned, or number of Resolve needed to resist remains the same for the target. This may keep players from beating each other up with the environment.

While I understand your vision (and it is really a cool idea), using temptation against your opponent seems like such a sure thing as opposed to using your powers. Also, while I believe giving your players a place as collaberator in your game is noble, they may not have the same intentions as you; you want a cool story/ they want to win. That may not always be a concern (for you, or anybody, but I tend to consider things like that when organizing a session or writing a game).

Its really nice to see a game that handles the heroes and powers as story elements. I would love to see this project take shape.

Keep it up,

Ken

[sean2099]

It sounds like a reasonable idea to increase the temptation scores by 2x but again, that would be a playtest issue.  I was also thinking that only the important characters would have temptation scores.  Minor characters and/or mooks would not have temptation scores.  So, the temptation battles would only take place against the lead villians.

In addition, if there is a scenerio that is not based on a villian's manipulation, then the temptation scores are a potential liability for the players.  i.e.  there is a train speeding towards a washed-out bridge...the players can't tempt the runaway train but the GM could say something like, there is the chance to get something you want but it depends on critical timing...which the locomotive would interfere with.  Now, the temptation is actually a complication.  If nothing else, the above event creates resolve and temptation for the players.

I guess I, or anyone else,  would have to decide if the stories are to be character-based or situitional based.  I will have to do some thinking about scenerios like the one mentioned above.

Sean

[Ken]

Minor characters and/or mooks would not have temptation scores.  So, the temptation battles would only take place against the lead villians.

Thats funny; I would think that mooks and minions would actually be more likely undone by their vices and lack of stick-to-it-iveness, than to get taken out by the heroes. I think their are enough examples of thugs panicking or giving in to their desires (at the deteriment of their mission) to warrant some sort of giving up rules. I do see your point though; having a bunch of thugs using those rules could stretch out an encounter. Maybe thugs act as a unit, and only get to invoke temptations as though they were a single opponent. Likewise, may thugs succumb to temptation as a unit (as one member of the ranks talks the rest of the group to go along with their scheme).

In addition, if there is a scenerio that is not based on a villian's manipulation, then the temptation scores are a potential liability for the players.  i.e.  there is a train speeding towards a washed-out bridge...the players can't tempt the runaway train but the GM could say something like, there is the chance to get something you want but it depends on critical timing...which the locomotive would interfere with.  Now, the temptation is actually a complication.  If nothing else, the above event creates resolve and temptation for the players.

Since players are tempted by the GM (though the use of villains and other characters or sitations) I don't see much difference in using non-living elements (like trains) to challenge the characters. They're all extensions of the story and game environment. Obviously, you can't tempt a train, but maybe a player could still interject story elements that makes subduing the train easier...and they take the temptation damage. If they fail, they come to a stop, huffing and puffing as they watch the locomovtive speed away to oblivion. Not totally sure where I'm going with, but maybe you can do something with it.

Still, good stuff,

Ken