Arch Inverted says 'Hi'

[Ninetongues]

   Hello

   My name is Raphael Sadowski, Im 22. Two months ago I moved to London from Poland, and I took my Arch Inverted (reffered as AI later) RPG project along with me.
   My target is not only to create nice INDIE, but to actually sell that game someday, and become rich and famous. Yeah, maybe, someday. As for now, I'm struggling to use my weak knowlegde of english language, and translate my ideas. It is hard enough even without the fact, that most of the system stil exists only in my head... Anyway - That's my concern, so I won't bore You with that anymore. Lets do business.

   Here's short part of what that game is, and what I would like it to be. I like sharing the idea, and I would like to know what do You think of it. As far as I know You are not the kind of guys, who praise just everything new. So I hope You'll ask questions, and that You'll point at everything that is weak here.

   Arch Inverted - the game

   AI is about power, people, and adventure. It's a big game, with many features and levels though.
   Players immerse into entirely new, very fresh world, use weird powers, duel with others, have fun, forge their own legend. Mostly it's a Fencer* simulator, Players create their own Fencers and do whatever they want, roaming around the Arche, meeting people, killing, loving, hating, running, seeking adventures and resting. There is lotsa fighting, joruneying and interaction with fabulous NPC's [non-player-characters, right? Not sure how do You call them in english...].

   Sounds normal for now? Sure it is. Lets get deeper:

   Arche - world & theme

    Game takes place in Science Fantasy world called Arche. It is the 'last place, that will ever be', as it is a world, that was created after everything else, all the time, universes, matter and space was extinguished.
   Arche is an artifical world placed inside gigantic sphere. Ancient machines buried deep, deep in ground generate gravitation, that keeps everything on the inner surface of the sphere. There is a 'sun' in the center, and three 'moons' spinning around it. No one knows what lies beneath Arche, if there IS anything... World is full of life, and it's said, that it contains most beautifull, most perfect creations off all the time, and of all the worlds and universes.
   There are many inteligent races sharing this world, most of them humanoidal. All those races have nations of their own, which gives us many, many different cultures.

   Technology level varies as we look at the lands and nations. In Fennerhia they got magical Gunpowder called Troc. In Rhea colosal train-cities are running iron lines all the way from Luth to Tarenth and Nidya. And when Khur People run through mists of their country bare-footed and with swords made of brytan, Acolytes all over the world are patrolling streets with their exoskeleton armor-suits.

   Magic exists on two levels:

   First, shamanic magic. Much like in our reality - As a fearfull belief, which if shared, can alter minds and decisions, or call rain from sky. It's laughed at by scientist and educated people, but no one would like to be cursed actually...

   And there is the Essence.
   Some say that this substance is all that's left of all the Creation. Energy and matter, that ever been, made one, and compressed. Substance rare, but trackable, filled with power to create and destroy. 
   Vials with bright, glowing essence is one of the main currencies on Arche. There are engines running on the very substance, machines, artifacts and items...

   Players role - the Fencer

   Players take the role of the Fencers - people, who can command, and use Essence on some level.
   Fencers are powerfull, and they are feared. About 10% of the Arche population are the Fencers, but many are not aware of that, and many die peacefully without any adventures, sacrifices and weird manifestations. There are theories about what gives them the power to command Creation, and looks like many of them are true, even though some excludes others.
   You can either be BORN as Fencer, CHANGE into one in some kind of 'accident', or BECOME, by years of hard training, though it's proved not anyone can become a Fencer.
   When You are one, strange things happen, as You stuggle to control Your power. And this things scare people shitless. There are stories of cities wiped out of the face of Arche through one night, when lonely, mad Fencer simply WALKED through it. So, people are scared of Fencers, and the fear is reasonable.

   What do the people do with things that they are scared of..?

   So Fencers are isolated. Alone. Mostly young, alone, desperate, fearfull of their own power, and of people. This makes many of them angry. And then they start to learn, how to survive. They train their bodies and minds. Alone, or under surveillance of older/more powerfull Fencers, they learn how to fight, to defend themselves, or to hurt others. Fencers learn fast, and the power to control Essence gives them impossible abilities. Flying, punching through walls, running on the water, or teleport... Ancient martial arts are just toys for them, for soon every one becomes powerfull, deadly half-god, unique in style, character, fighting technques, likes, dislikes, history and cravings. Most of them don't look at the world in good-bad terms. They are over it.
   Many of them live among ordinary folks, in cities, joruneying, never staying in one place too long, looking for thrill, for adventure, and more power.

   So the players start as already developed Fencers.
   Yup, they are powerfull. Although not as powerfull as the best of the fencers, but lets say it straight - a patrol of 6 City Guards wont even probably try to stop a Fencer. For he could kill them all with one hand behind his back. Fencers are mostly very good in fighting, by sword, knives, blades of all kinds, spears, bows, guns, or whatever was ever created to hurt others. Plus their powers - this mix makes them a ligue for themselves. For 'only a Fencer [or army] can defeat a Fencer'. Well, actually if some farmer guy would shot a Fencer beetween the eyes he could kill him, but a Fencer, who loosen his guard is not a Fencer for long.

   Now.
   In a world as weird and dangerous as Arche there are many monsters, quests, riddles, and other Fencers to keep one's interest. Most interesting is of course interaction with other Fencers and their loose 'society'. Fencers duel often, and duel to death, trying to prove simply that one is more powerfull than the other. Of course there are calm Fencers, who don't even carry weapons, and that are interested in flora, but even they HAVE some way to defend themselves from so called Hunters, angry crowds, and other Fencers, that, let's say, like their shoes, would like to make a necklace of their teeth, or just like to have some morning sparring 'withsomething'...
   So yes - all of the Fencers are fighters. All of the Players play role of hard, tough guy or girl. Of course there are still many variations of the Fencer scheme, so still there are may things to decide about - does the Fencer rely on his fighting skills, or his powers? On training, or luck? He was a rich citizen, a prince before, or was he a farmer child, or scared wild-child, hunted by everyone, that thought he's the thing..? Or maybe he is son/daughter of a powerful Fencer, and was treaten with love all his life? And how many times did I used a 'Fencer' word already..? Damn.

   Enough for the begining.
   No, I don't have a site with all of this stuff. Im still thinking about goin' offical someday, so I'm carefull, but yes, I think there should be a site for AI in the Net. Someday. I know nothing about HTML though, who knows, maybe Ill find here somebody, who will help me?
   Next time, I'm going to tell You more about the world, because I think its one of the strongest points of the game.

   If You already have any thoughts or questions, I will be more than happy to read/consider/answer them, so go on.

   Thanks for reading.

ps: Just for little tease: here's character sheet for the game. Well, one thing is sure - if I had a site for AI, I know how I would like it too look. ^^
   

[joepub]

Hey Raphael.

First of all: This is very, very cool. I'm going to share with you some source materials I think you could look at for inspiration, and I'm going to question a couple things you are doing. I am very intrigued by what you have so far.

Magic: the Gathering has an expansion called Mirrodin. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/expansion/mirrodin
Mirrodin is an expansion set in a metallic world. There are these "artifact golems", shifting metalscapes, and also plantlife and humans and animals. It's a cool synergy of metal and life, which kind of sounds like Arche in ways.

I strongly suggest that, regardless of whether you play M:tG yet or not, you buy a couple packs of Mirrodin, read the cards, and play with them. Good food for thought.

The other is Legend of the Dragoon, which is a Playstation (one) game that came on 4 discs. The Lancer concept is similar to their Dragoon concept, and even playing through the first disc will be good inspiration material.

Okay, moving on: I love the "last thing to ever be created" angle. I think it is important that you don't detail the world(s) that existed before Arche. It should be this not-talked-about void in the world. A cut-off in history.

AI is about power, people, and adventure. It's a big game, with many features and levels though.
   Players immerse into entirely new, very fresh world, use weird powers, duel with others, have fun, forge their own legend. Mostly it's a Fencer* simulator, Players create their own Fencers and do whatever they want, roaming around the Arche, meeting people, killing, loving, hating, running, seeking adventures and resting. There is lotsa fighting, joruneying and interaction with fabulous NPC's [non-player-characters, right? Not sure how do You call them in english...].

Now, at The Forge there is often a fair deal of emphasis put on hardwiring situations/premises into the game. What I mean by this is: Instead of leaving the game as a "you can do anything" tool, give the players some strong angles/situations with which to game.

For example:
-As a Lancer, you must decide: Do you deserve your power? And more importantly, does the rest of the world deserve your help?
-As one of humanity's last knights, what wars are worth fighting?
-How much are you willing to sacrifice to save a nation that has outcast you?

And instead of putting emphasis on a laundry list of skills and equipment weights, put emphasis on these kinds of questions, while you design.

Im still thinking about goin' offical someday, so I'm careful

Raphael, I have no idea what you mean by this.

Do you mean, "Some day, I plan to publish this through a large company"?
Do you mean, "Some day, I plan to self-publish this"?
Do you mean something else?

I can tell you, as an independant publisher: Sharing your ideas for mechanics is a good thing. Most people on The Forge advocate putting your stuff online for everyone else to look at.

Before you worry about creating a website, here are some suggestions:
-Create a PDF playtest version of your game... complete with all setting info, rules, character sheet, etc. Make it available through http://www.1km1kt.net/, which lets you host free RPG PDFs. Include your email address in the PDF, and ask for feedback and playtest reports.
-Keep posting here.
-Start posting playtest reports via The Forge playtesting forum. Get others to publically critique your game as you work on it.
-Start up a Wiki or message board to discuss your game. If you have enough support around here, Ron/Clinton may give you permission for you own game design forum on this page.

In general, why worry about people "stealing" your ideas? If you and other game designers share your progress, then you can build off each other and ultimately be producing better games.


Finally... You seem to have a lot of attributes, skills, weapon stats, derived stats, etc.
I'm typically wary of systems that have such a huge block of numbers, but I can't judge until I learn more about the system. Are you interested in sharing?

[joepub]

By the way, your logo is beautiful and you have a definite eye for design.

[Filip Luszczyk]

Hi Rafal, and welcome to the Forge!

First of all, you have some cool color here - the thing you are working on strongly reminds me of Exalted, but it feels more like Gene Wolfe. Coolness.

Unfortunately, I see some symptoms of a typical Polish game design here, and it makes me worried as I can see where you are heading with this.

The setting concept you present sounds fun. I believe I could run a great game with what you give here - and I don't think I'd need much more information. Maybe a paragraph or two about each of the main nations, a page or so of general geographical information and, say, five pages of other key elements and atmospheric detail. Plus a list of names and typical places to find. Only as much as needed to start running a game and provide a springboard for players' and GM's own creativity. Ten-twenty pages or so, more would be too much.

Now, most of the recent Polish games fail to interest me. Although games like Monastyr, Neuroshima, Crystalicum or Wolsung shine in the general concept area and produce a cool feel, an overabundance of extensive setting details ultimately makes them barely digestible. Unfortunately, most Polish designs of late winded up as detailed setting encyclopedias, leaving not much place for the group's creativity. On the top of that, their authors use to hand-wave the system, focusing on setting color and neglecting playability. As a result, they often fail to realise previously stated design goals and apart from setting encyclopedia provide a standard gameplay, nothing that couldn't be achieved with Basic RPG or GURPS.

Consequently, I advice to avoid extensive setting detail - rather to light the fuse of player's creativity by painting a general suggestive picture. It's all about quality, not quantity. You could look at DitV for a great example of a minimalist setting that perfectly does its job.

Actually, I'd like to hear more about the gamey side of the game itself. How do you envision a typical session of AI? What's the GM's role, and what is the player's role in it? What kind of fun does it produce?

Also, the character sheet suggests me some things about the game, but it doesn't tell me much for sure. I'd like to ask you what is the function of all the things on it. I'm not interested in what the chants and combos and all represent, though - I'd rather hear what is the main purpose of having the mechanical information on the sheet. For example:

-Does it provide the players with tactically useful resources and options?
-Does it reflect the character's capabilities in the game world?
-Does it gives the player tools to say what kinds of situations and color interest him or her the most?
-Does it create interesting dilemmas for the player?
-Or maybe its main, most important function is completely different?

If you can answer this, it should say a lot about the type of the game you are working on.

[Filip Luszczyk]

Oh, and keep in mind that these are personal opinions only. If you want some other, more specific kind of feedback, just ask.

[Ninetongues]

My..!

First of all - thanks for fast feedback. Let's do some answers first, and later I'll describe basics of the mechanics. Sorry for the amount of text, but since the system is not written down entirely, and definately not in english, so I had to write most of it down again.

joepub

MTG: I was player for some time. I think I experimented with everything I could get my hands on, and yes, Magic, and all kind of fantasy-SF concept designing and ilustrations are great source of inspiration. And the Mirrodin is very neat concept, yes. So the only thing I can say is - everybody - look for inspirations all around, not only in books, movies or other RPG's.

Legend of the Dragoon: Never had occasion, but I will check that. Thanks.

Though for now, as Filip noticed, I have more than enough material for this world. And yes, I know what You mean Filip by the 'polish game design' symptoms. Right now I'm struggling with cutting off everything that's not necesary, and trying to morph this game from 'everything for everyone' into... Well, 'Arch Inverted'. And that's a pain in the ass, I must say, especially, when you have to deal with all the side-ideas that you were creating for over 10 years.

I took ideas and concepts from so many things, that it would be impossible to write them all down here, but I think that the 10 most important creations that influenced the final shape of AI were:

Frank Herbert's 'Dune'
Gene Wolfe's 'Whorl'
My players
Planescape
John Varley's 'Titan'
Mage: Ascension [old WoD]
Albion [old Blue Byte's CRPG, on one cd]
Loads of crappy anime [I mean: i used great ideas from weak series, and that's the best inspiration ever ^^ ]
Star Wars
Blame! - best comic book in the world made by Nihei Tsutomu

I must say, that when I saw Exalted I said 'Whoa! That's mine!' But fortunately, wen I read all the books I was relieved, for though there were similarities, they were minor. The whole concept is very, very different, so it doesn't matter anyway.

It's nice that You noticed that so fast Filip. And if You were able to see that the setting is over-packed with concepts after so little text, means, that I need to work sculpting the final image of AI oh-so-much-harder. ^^'

Now, about the situations/premises for the Fencer...
Freedom is very important thing in this whole setting. I wouldn't like for anyone to feel any pressure, as how the Fencer should live, or what kind of troubles/decisions he should deal with. And so, as the whole game is a simulation of Fencer's life - suddenly both great, and simple everyday-things matter, like saving the city, killing a mad Fencer, choosing breed and colour of Your winx, training, changing hairstyle & doing laundry.

But I think I could make up some things like that:

- What is the limit of Your power? Is there any?
- Do You think that You ascended? That You are no longer human? Is that what You want?
- Are there any things that could hold You from improving? Morality? Law? Religion?

So, as I can see it, everything could be fitted into this verse:

- You have the potential to become a god. Now, what would You like to do? [with that?]



About goin' official... Well. Let's leave it for now. But I should definately share my mechanics with You, and all the other stuff, yes. Plus, start creating the .pdf thing.

Now, here are answers for Filip's questions about character sheet. Im glad I could answer most of them.

-Does it provide the players with tactically useful resources and options?
-Does it reflect the character's capabilities in the game world?

Yes, it does.
When I finished the sixth version of AI CS I was struck by one thing - 'Damn, I have too many space left!' ^^' So I filled the paper with things not necesary, because all of it could lay written in the book. But now, almost everything that a player need is dscribed on his CS, so there is no need for looking into rulebook for every lil' thing. I even doubled some frames, like for weapons & Arts, and that is not necesary for most of the characters.
So Yes, players have all they need to play on the one sided, A4 CS, full, written down characterisic of their Fencer.

-Does it gives the player tools to say what kinds of situations and color interest him or her the most?

Yes. Im proud of my mechanics, because it's simple, fast, small [ ] AND gives player ability to say almost everything about his character in six attributes, even his likes and dislikes. More about that when I'll tell You about the mechanics.

-Does it create interesting dilemmas for the player?
-Or maybe its main, most important function is completely different?

Well, It's main function is to describe the Fencer. I'm just not sure what do You mean with CS that is creating dilemmas for the player, sorry... ^^' Could You please, make some example? Orr... Wait. I just thought about something. ^^

There is a 'dilemma' here.
In other games players simply try to have every stat maximized. Using Soul6 [the mechanic's neat name] You have the dilemma - 'If I want to be faster, I would have to change psychique of my Fencer, sculpt him into someone a bit else. Do I want that? Is my Fencer ready for the change? Are there any external factors that would justify the change?'

Ok.

Now, about the mechanics.



Soul6 - the mechanics

Souls6 gives a helping hand to describe a living, thinking entity. There are no stats for buildings, weather, surroundings, fly's, birds and cats. Only inteligent life form can be described by that mechanics, although stuff like weather, surroundings and conditions can of course alter the quality of one's stats. But You won't find any tables with 'weather mods' etc.
And that way - Game Master is very free with his interpretation. Not only that - it encourages fexibility of the world, and always keep the PC's in the center of the game.

There are 3 basic factors, that describes a 'person' in Soul6:

The Factors - Main, most important part of Soul6, CS, and character.

There are 6 factors, which value from 1 to 6.

Each factor is a virtual concept with two meanings - one, the psychical, and two, physical. [a bit like the Rings in L5R, although it's not divided]
Important thing is that this concept is open-defined, which leaves us ability to flex it, when we need to describe something else. I'll give an example soon, cause this may sound weird and troubling.
Plus, when we read the Factors we get... Full psychique profile and the character of... Um, character!

Of course the Factors vary if we use them to describe one world/setting and another.
But lets focus on the AI.

Factors in AI are concepts that exists and function in the realm. They are neyomian words describing creatures, made by scientific Neyomians, who always are keen to describe, define, and  research.

TAN ['tawn'] is the 'might' of both mind and body. Physically - the more TAN you are, the more muscle You got. Easy. Psychically - the more TAN you are, the more iron will You have. [don't get it wrong, 'Iron will' is not 'inteligence' nor 'wisdom'. Stupid, big strong bastard can have 'Iron will' as well] It's the courage as well, because You are confident in Your might.

AED ['aid'] is the endurance of both, body and mind. Physically - if You are very AED, You won't get sick easily, your pain endurance level will be high etc. Psychicaly - if You are AED you can resist pukeing and knee trembling on the sight of dead, massacrated corpse of neighbour. The more AED You are, the less fragile and sensitive You are, so an artist who is very AED is rare, and most of the time - crappy.

GAT ['gate'] is maturity and complexity. The less You are GAT, the more childish, 'straight' You are. Scientists, thinkers and sad, old guys... They can have high GAT. GAT is self control as well. Every Factor that is higher than Your GAT will impose behaviour apropriate to its nature.

RAE ['ray'] the freedom, the self-imposed limit. Physically - the more agile You are, the more RAE You are. Psychically - a typical citizen, bored with his work, used to take a shower everyday, clean and correct is very little RAE. A wild-child, like Tarzan on the opposite is very, very RAE.

QNN ['koon'] the nerve. The more QNN - the faster You are. The more QNN - You irritate easier, You are impatient.

SNY ['sni' like in 'sni-per'] its the style, artistic abilities and dexterity. The more SNY You are, the more attractive You look for most of the others [although of course it doesnt mean, that everyone will like You, or something. Everybody have their own sense of what they like in others {yeah, every character have to write down two 'features' that they value in others} and the SNY only tells how 'undefined good' You look] and the more SNY You are, the nimbler are Your fingers, hands, and You are more precise.

And in that easy way we not only how hard does Eddie hit with his awelorn, but we know many,many hings about him as well.
Lets look at the ex. Features of some Fencer:

TAN 3       RAE 4
AED 6      QNN 2
GAT 2      SNY 2

Now we can do the interpretation, and we an do many interesting versions of the character here.

Look at the extremes.
AED 6 tells us, that this guy is life hardened. But GAT 2 tells that he is not very mature, nor thinking-type. Low QNN and SNY... Well, what I see here is some guy who was kept somewhere, like some kind of a gladiator, or one of the wild-childs, who run away from home. A prisoner, a slave maybe.
Maybe he is young, maybe just not educated. Anyway, its rather some kind of sad guy, too hard to feel compasion, but not too 'old' to laugh.

Another one..? Let's say female this time.

TAN 2       RAE 1
AED 3      QNN 4
GAT 5      SNY 5

Whoa. We got some princess here.
SNY 5 - preety preety. Combined with GAT 5 gives us a vision of an rather mature woman, but we don't know if the psychical maturity is supported by physical. RAE 1- well, she's definately not Xena. More than that, she looks like a civilisation addict. She's pedantic, quite easy to scare [TAN 2], and even easier to get pissed off [QNN 4]. I wouldn't like to adventure with a girl lke that on my back...
But she's pretty, smart and quick. Give her some long, thin knives, and we'll make a Fencer of her. Oh, and don't forget the poison...

The Feats - You can have one, or not. There are no levels for Feats. Merits, Flaws, Special Powers, mental disorders and all this stuff fits here. These are some tools to distort, to flex the rules for Your character. You want to be big, strong, iron-willed [TAN 5] AND a coward? Get the Coward or Phobia Flaw.
I think that's preety obvious and doesn't need any explanation.

The Skills - All the small things You know or You are good at. There are three levels of each skill. Most of them are easy and intuitive to use, like for example tracking:

lvl 1 - 'Yeah, definately somebody was riding on a winx here, I think about four, maybe eight hours ago'

lvl 2 - 'Two people on one winx, five and a half hour ago'

lvl 3 - 'Girl and a guy on a winx. She is nervous, but no, she's not being kidnapped. I think they are runing. Oh, and the guy is blonde, say 19 or 20 years... And damn, she smells nice!'

And some of them need more... Strict explanation, like the Marial Arts [yeah, they are skills, but look on the CS at down left corner, how much place can they take, if described fully] or for example puncture skill:

'Puncture' is the ancient medical knowledge, with its roots in early Jinn culture. Similar to acupuncture, it tells about special energy points in body of every living creature. Puncture can be used to heal, and yes, it can be used to kill more efficently too, yes.

lvl 1 - Healing:

-You can do special 30 minutes massage, that will relax body of the subject, and make him feel well, which gives temporary Blood +5 bonus, and raises the Verge +1. You can't deliver the massage to yourself though. This relaxed state works until next sleep of the subject.

-With special needles for puncture, You can perform a one 1 hour long puncture session that will give subject the modifier +1 to every test of chosen Feature for the next 30 hours [night and day on Arche 15 hours long each] or till next sleep.

-With the needles You can perform a 15 after-shock healing session. You can lighten the pain, stop the bleeding, and impose the body to heal faster. Subject heals [puncture lvl + Your SNY + d6] Blood points. You can perform this to the same one subject for many times equal to Your puncture lvl. before his body will need to relax in sleep.

-If You are fighting, and targeting any part of the enemy body, You can choose to attack the special point to case more damage and pain [suffer -2 mod for Your Offensive in exchage for 5 points of extra damage [if You will hit, of curse]].

lvl 2 ...etc. etc.

And thats the mechanics of Soul6 on-the-run.

Ok, I think that's enough for now too. Gawd, loads of text. ^^' Sorry... At least I hope it's cool to read.

[Filip Luszczyk]

-Does it provide the players with tactically useful resources and options?
-Does it reflect the character's capabilities in the game world?

Yes, it does.(...)

Ok, I'm not sure if you did understand my question about the sheet fully.

I believe your mechanics can have all, or most of this. Which function matters for you the most, though?

It's just knowing the components of the PCs characterization doesn't really tell anything about how the game is supposed to be played. Judging from the "Fencer simulator" words appearing here and there, and your general enthusiasm about and stress on this and that, I get an impression, that the purpose of the whole thing is most of all having an accurate reflection of the character in a fictional world. Am I right about this, or did I misinterpret things?

I'm just not sure what do You mean with CS that is creating dilemmas for the player, sorry... ^^

What I mean are the components that would facilitate putting the character in situations that would provide the player with some tough decisions, of moral/ethical rather than tactical variety. Since it seems to be a rather standard game design, I don't anticipate this. But I'm still asking, since you could have such priorities covered under the "simulator" facade, maybe even unrealised by you yourself.

Well, I think you could find the game design essays in the articles section of this site helpful, as they introduce some concepts that can give you some new perspectives.

Also, did you playtested the thing already? If so, putting a report on the playtesting forum could be a good idea.

[Ninetongues]

Well, looks like I'm far behind Your scientific methods, sorry. ^^' It's just that looks like I need some 'new perspectives'. I didn't had any contact with RPG makers so far. And I'm not counting normal healthy GMs, because any one of them probably makes his own system. When I say 'RPG maker' I think about guys writing ruleooks, playing and testing INDIEs and stuff. That's why I couldn't get what do You mean exactly... ^^'

So yes, the CS's purpose is to have reflection of the character in a fictional world.

It's just that I didn't even thought that there IS another possible purpose for 'character recording sheet'. ^^' And now You should know what I mean, when I say that I'm 'far behind'. Now I'm starting thinking. I'm already changing my perspective.

About the playtesting... Now I think I didn't make it clear.
AI is being created for more then 10 years now. And it's played for more then 10 years now. In Poland I played the thing with my team, and about 60 other people. So yes, it's playtested. ^^ I think.

All the mecanics WORK.
Factors, although always a bit confusing on the begining, find many uses through game. And if player get used to them, he starts to wondering 'what if this and that would do, if I would act like that then and there...' and this creates new ways of fun, like trying to count into the Factors a new NPC, acting in the rhytm of Your PC's Factors, deciding when and how could he act like that, or like that... Discussions about 'how exactly do You look into his eyes?'. ^^
There is little testing in the game, I mean, You dont have to use dices everytime one guy is chasing other guy on the city roofs. But, well... When the fight starts...
All players say that fighting is the best and most exciting part of whole Soul mech. They liked it so much, that they invented new form of spending time, sparring with their PC's between sessions, like some goddamn Pokemons.

So, getting back to the AI... I noticed now, that most of the games here are one-weekers, games made fast, and with skill for one purpose, or just to examine one new way of thinking about RPG's.
And compared to them AI is very... Classic. Its about adventures, with lotsa fighting, and not putting really much pressure on the players, nor the GM. It's also... Really big. I mean, compared to most of the INDIEs. Its size is similar to... Well, like Forgotten Realms. I mean with the number of features, the SIZE of the world. And I'm not gonna ever cut it to those 25% of essence, because its 'essence' is... Variety. Normality. Simulation of a whole new world. Where things like new ecosystem, new physics, new knowledges like archegraphy, archelogy, new ways of doing laundry, sexual life of Ascotes, medicine, music, all those tinylittle cultures... Everything... It just matter. It's what makes AI.

I am now on the way to straighten everything up, to get rid of everything, that is not necesary. But I won't, I can't get rid of those lil' things.

But don't worry, I won't be that boring here.

I think that next time I could write something more about the Races and the World itself, although I will have to use some diagrams to tell You the basics of Archelogy.
And in the free time I'll start doing this .pdf book in english. This will be really good basis for www page later.

[ja-prozac]

Hi, Rafal.

First question - what do you expect from ths thread? Is this just designer's quasiblog
or you have specific questions to ask?

Mechanic works, you say. I'm waiting for actual play to see it. I can suspect lots pf gm fiat
and 'storyteling techniques'(you know what I mean) and huuuge gap between gm and players'
point of views.

So, you fell in love with the world you've imagined. I don't think that it helps you to write your
game. Most of all these lil things are fun for you but not for players or people who will read AI
when/if it's going to be published.

Also try to answer to yourself other people questions before rushing to another part of describing
your game. The questions, if answered, can give a lot of food for thoughts. Besides, there's
no need to hurry, AI's been waiting for ten years. One more can't hurt it.

Kamil Wegrzynowicz

[joepub]

Hey, Raphael...

I just want to highlight an important thing that Filip said here:

Unfortunately, I see some symptoms of a typical Polish game design here, and it makes me worried as I can see where you are heading with this.

The setting concept you present sounds fun. I believe I could run a great game with what you give here - and I don't think I'd need much more information. Maybe a paragraph or two about each of the main nations, a page or so of general geographical information and, say, five pages of other key elements and atmospheric detail. Plus a list of names and typical places to find. Only as much as needed to start running a game and provide a springboard for players' and GM's own creativity. Ten-twenty pages or so, more would be too much.

Now, most of the recent Polish games fail to interest me. Although games like Monastyr, Neuroshima, Crystalicum or Wolsung shine in the general concept area and produce a cool feel, an overabundance of extensive setting details ultimately makes them barely digestible. Unfortunately, most Polish designs of late winded up as detailed setting encyclopedias, leaving not much place for the group's creativity.

I'm going to say it straight up: No GM or players enjoy having a world where everything is regimented. the fun of playing in/GMing a fantasy game is creating societal norms, social oddities, fun NPCs.... Not in reading up on them.

In my first post, I said:

Now, at The Forge there is often a fair deal of emphasis put on hardwiring situations/premises into the game. What I mean by this is: Instead of leaving the game as a "you can do anything" tool, give the players some strong angles/situations with which to game.

For example:
-As a Lancer, you must decide: Do you deserve your power? And more importantly, does the rest of the world deserve your help?
-As one of humanity's last knights, what wars are worth fighting?
-How much are you willing to sacrifice to save a nation that has outcast you?

And instead of putting emphasis on a laundry list of skills and equipment weights, put emphasis on these kinds of questions, while you design.

You created some of those questions yourself.

Now here's what I'm trying to get at: amidst all of the skills and ammo counts and stats and stances I don't see anything resembling an answer to the questions you say the game can be about.

You need to make your rules reflect what your game is about... And if your game is about the social repercussions of being a Lancer, and teh responsibility of power that they hold... then your Rules should be about this too.

I think this is also what Filip is saying with:

What I mean are the components that would facilitate putting the character in situations that would provide the player with some tough decisions, of moral/ethical rather than tactical variety. Since it seems to be a rather standard game design, I don't anticipate this. But I'm still asking, since you could have such priorities covered under the "simulator" facade, maybe even unrealised by you yourself.

You replied with this:

There is a 'dilemma' here.
In other games players simply try to have every stat maximized. Using Soul6 [the mechanic's neat name] You have the dilemma - 'If I want to be faster, I would have to change psychique of my Fencer, sculpt him into someone a bit else. Do I want that? Is my Fencer ready for the change? Are there any external factors that would justify the change?'

I think that totally misses the point. That might be a player (tactical) dilemma, but we are talking about dilemmas and problems for hte character. Do they exist?

You need to decide what takes the forefront in your design: telling amazing stories, or providing tactical opportunities, or exploring a documented landscape? They can all have their place to varying degrees, but the general school of thought here is that only one can take priority in design.


If you want any more feedback in this thread, I suggest you ask specific questions and solicit specific feedback.

I also highly reccomend moving into the Playtesting forum and sharing some of the problems you've been facing there.

[Ninetongues]

Well, I find people asking questions about AI very helpful, and I would like You to ask about everything, and You can expect me to try and find an answer for every little issue.
Every new point of view alters my point of view, we all know that.

What I expect from this thread... A confrontation. I would like to confront my vision with other designers minds. I know, that players like AI [and soon You will know that as well, for the quick .pdf rulebook is coming] and now I need to know what do You think. Other thing - I need GM who will want to playtest the thing. I know only one other GM that sometimes run AI for her team, and I find her thoughts very important.

And yes, I'm in love with my work. Thought that's normal, healthy thing for designer? And why do You say that small things are not interesting for players? But I think that's what builds up the climax. Plus this is really NEW world. There is not even one animal species or a plant, that we know off. No cats, no birds, no horses. No oaks, no roses, no apples. No chocolate, no iron, no sunset. I HAD to create some new thinghs, that will make this world feel like something... Else.
This approach makes players interested in the world, and they don't need some bad guys invading the realm, or wars between factions, because when the world is described with detail, they are happy to just... Immerse, just LIVE there. They create fun for theselves. Simple walk on the street in a world like that can be thrilling, wonderfull experience. No need to run for artificial existence dilemmas.

Right now I gave You the basics of my mechancs [last part of that loooong post] and I would like to know what do You think of it.

[Filip Luszczyk]

Rafal,

I'm not sure how much time have you spent reading Forge forums, but this place works a bit different than most RPG and game design sites out there, especially the Polish sites you might have visited. "Confrontation" is nothing to search for here. This place exists for giving and getting feedback - but it's impossible without asking specific questions, or answering questions asked by the others.

The First Thoughts forum in particular will not serve you much at this point. I think that in order to provide some food for further discussion, you should go there and start a thread. Read some recent AP discussions and playtest reports first if you are not sure how to do it.

This is important. It's impossible to produce a good game without playtesting the project extensively, regardless whether it's a classic or (heh) progressive design. It's not about the sheer concept or time spent on the design. Completing most "week game designs" you can see here took the authors months of hard labour - playtesting, rewriting, playtesting, rewriting, playtesting and rewriting again, until the final product was hammered in sweat* Ten years of development means nothing without giving the game proper playtesting and deeply reflecting on its results.

You may be accustomed to the notion that writing a game is one part high concept and four parts producing the text. It's false, and I can speak from my own experience. Working on the official d20 conversion of Crystalicum I've spent nearly two years on producing one thick Bible of rules. Some conceptual work, then a lot of hitting the keys, then a bit of playtesting, then lots and lots of hitting the keys again, and some outside playtesting that gave me absolutely no feedback besides that "the players like the game". I wound up with a product I'm completely unsatisfied with, and now I feel I failed as a designer (never mind it may not see the light due to the publishers problems of late - but maybe it's better that way).

It's one part high concept, one part writing the text, ten parts playtesting and three parts polishing the product until it shines.

And yes, I'm in love with my work. Thought that's normal, healthy thing for designer?

Yes, it is normal.

No, it is not healthy. Nothing hurts a child more than an overprotective mother.

One needs to fight with it like it were a cancer.

If you are really serious about your design, you must be ready to toss weeks, months or even years of labour out the window and start from scratch, if it serves the final product better. Does it hurt? Sure. Does it help to produce a better game? Experience of people here proves it does.

So get over the sentiments and give your game a critical look.

when the world is described with detail, they are happy to just... Immerse, just LIVE there. They create fun for theselves.

How is it possible that they create anything, if everything is created by the author? It's an impossible thing. One can't have a creative input in something already created by someone else.

What's left to do if everything is already established? No wonder what gives your players the most fun is combat, as it's apparently the last creative front, the last bastion of meaningful choices for them.

Unless your game actually is different than just about any Polish game I can think of (well, let's put Oko Yrhedessa aside ). Still, everything sounds painfully familiar to me.

This is one of the reasons people ask you for the playtest report. We can see some bits of your concept, we can see some bits of your mechanics, we can see your enthusiasm. Still, we can't see the game in action. It's much more important to provide us with something we can base our feedback on than with the pdf itself. (Also, you will find out it's tough like hell to find outside playtesters without it.)

One last thing. I know that some of the things we are writing here are harsh, but you won't make a cake without breaking some eggs. You might feel turned off at first, but keep in mind it's completely up to you whether to write here or not. Many times I've seen people who asked for opinions first, but then couldn't accept that the criticism and feedback of more experienced designers can be valid. And I'm not writing this from the position of an experienced game designer, as there are really experienced authors here at the Forge and I'm certainly not one of them. Still, there are people ready to share their experience and knowledge with you, if only you are ready to listen.

The "scientific methods" you're far behind are a good place to start - there is much design wisdom in the articles on the page

*I'm not talking about little byproducts of an actual development, or design exercises like 24h RPGs, but fully-fledged games, mind you.

[Filip Luszczyk]

I think that in order to provide some food for further discussion, you should go there and start a thread.

Ouch.

By "there" I mean the Playtesting forum of course

[Ninetongues]

Ok, I shouldn't just jump out like that and say "Hey, look at MY game!"...

All that enthusiasm sometimes takes over me. I'll look around on the Forum, read some stuff, and then I'll ask basic questions. I can see tht he biggest problem with AI is... Its size. I need to cut it. I need to change it. But to cut it, to chane it I need to know what is this game all about? I can talk and talk about the 'simulaton' and about the 'Fencers', but it doesn't answer fully that question.

Right now Im working on the Playtest Version of sourcebook [in english, sheesh.. --' ]. When it's ready, I'll try to get some serious playtesting here. That's it for now.
Thanks for all feedback. Looks like Im staying here, on the Forge...

[joepub]

What Filip was suggesting is that you post some of the playtesting you've already done, in the Playtesting forum.