[PTA]

[Cooper]

I was having a very similar situation as Ignotus, but decided to start a new thread because I do not want to take away from his questions (which were really helpful).

We have now had three sessions on our TV show and we are all new to the co-narrative style of roleplaying. All kinds of things have gone wrong, but we are still having fun. I believe I know some of the problems, but the two questions I do have is:

• Is the Producer supposed to not only come up with the "problem" at the beginning of the episode, but also ad the two complications?

• If I do come up with the problem at the beginning of the episode, are the other players required to have to come up with scenes? I know that they are supposed to do that in theory, but it is not working, so I was curious if there is a way to ease them into doing that?

I have been struggling to teach my players this style of roleplaying, but it has resulted in out-right defiance to people blanking out to utter confusion to what they should be doing. I know this game works. I have heard two recordings of The Sons of Kryos games and have read play reports.

It is not only my players that are having a hard time, this is really new to me also, so I am taking some of the blame (although it would have been nice if someone else would have looked at the rules too). I was hoping this would go a lot better and then try out Nine Worlds next, but I am not sure this is going to work.

[Judd]

• Is the Producer supposed to not only come up with the "problem" at the beginning of the episode, but also ad the two complications?

Problem?

The Producer frames the first scene and the episode should be about the issues of the PC's with the highest screen presence.  Where is this problem thing coming from?

• If I do come up with the problem at the beginning of the episode, are the other players required to have to come up with scenes? I know that they are supposed to do that in theory, but it is not working, so I was curious if there is a way to ease them into doing that?

Again, where is this coming up with the problem coming from?  It has been a while since I read the book, so perhaps I am missing something.

It is pretty clear about who frames what scene.  Asking your players, "Where is your character?  What are they doing?" and working from that can sometimes help get towards a scene framing frame of mind.

I have been struggling to teach my players this style of roleplaying, but it has resulted in out-right defiance to people blanking out to utter confusion to what they should be doing. I know this game works. I have heard two recordings of The Sons of Kryos games and have read play reports.

I promise that your players have framed scenes before but they just didn't realize they were doing it.  But it is a skill, a muscle that we just aren't used to using in this way.

Hope this feedback helps.

P.S.  The game we have recorded has some problems with the way I handled the resolution of conflicts and stakes setting but that is for another time.  First things first: get everyone scene framing.

Also, if they get stuck, they can ask for help but make sure that doesn't turn into everyone just looking at the Producer for the next scene again and again and again.

Good luck.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Judd, the problem and complications come from the TV show act model Matt describes in the book: each episode of the show is split into four acts, often coinciding with the commercial breaks. First act introduces a complication, the second and third postpone resolution and often introduce a secondary plot-line, fourth act resolves everything. It's proffered as a producer aid in the book, not as a rules-system per se.

As for Cooper: the problem and complications are specifically "gamemastering instructions", so if the produces uses that model for his show, it's up to him to use the structure. It's not even necessary to bring it up to the players, that stuff is indented solely for the benefit of the producer's.

For your scene framing problems, I suggest constructive dialogue. Ask the player leading questions and proffer suggestions. Make it clear that you're there to catch them if they can't think of anything particularly good. Make it clear that the whole group is there to pitch in if somebody has a problem. I usually start the wrangling by asking the whole group for suggestions before moving in myself, actually. Ideally I also have a ringer in the group who I can trust to suggest something good, just so the players don't perceive me as controlling the whole process.

All of that won't be useful if the group is outright hostile about the game, though. If that is the case, there's not much to be done except talk about why the players don't like it. It might be that they hate television, who knows.

[Alan]

And don't forget -- only the Producer frames scenes. Players take turns setting the agenda and focus and may suggest what's going on, but the Producer has final say.

In PTA, the concept of scene framing or narration rights allows anyone to make suggestions but in the end it's one person who decides whose ideas to use and in what combination. Any time the player or producer are stuck, they can ask for suggestions. Sometimes, it's a good idea for the producer to encourage suggestions.

As for problem and complications -- the Producer gets the first scene so he can intro the thrust of the episode (the "problem"). Basically, it's the episode premise -- base it on the Issue of the character who's in the spotlight, or if no one has a 3 screen presence, focus on the premise of your series. I wouldn't plan much beyond this first scene, some NPCs, and some ways you can complicate things later. But don't try to force your complications into existance -- treat them as ideas you can use if the flow of the game goes that way -- a bandolier of ammo to use when the opportunity offers.

[Cooper]

I realized that I hit return before putting something other that PTA in the subject. Sorry about that.

Judd, the problem and complications come from the TV show act model Matt describes in the book: each episode of the show is split into four acts, often coinciding with the commercial breaks....

Yes, that is what I was talking about with "problems & complications."

As for Cooper: the problem and complications are specifically "gamemastering instructions", so if the produces uses that model for his show, it's up to him to use the structure. It's not even necessary to bring it up to the players, that stuff is indented solely for the benefit of the producer's.

Should I try to have something in mind for the beginning scene before we come to the table (or in my case "coffee table and couches")?

For your scene framing problems, I suggest constructive dialogue. Ask the player leading questions and proffer suggestions. Make it clear that you're there to catch them if they can't think of anything particularly good. Make it clear that the whole group is there to pitch in if somebody has a problem. I usually start the wrangling by asking the whole group for suggestions before moving in myself, actually. Ideally I also have a ringer in the group who I can trust to suggest something good, just so the players don't perceive me as controlling the whole process.

I think the group dynamics is what hurt the collaboration with our game (more on that in a minute). But, I did make it clear that unless you were the spotlight character, you did not really have to request something. You could just help someone else's scene (although after a while, that may get old).

All of that won't be useful if the group is outright hostile about the game, though. If that is the case, there's not much to be done except talk about why the players don't like it. It might be that they hate television, who knows.

It was one player in particular and that rubbed off on his wife. They did not mind on the pilot, but by our third session he kind of got rude to me when I was asking for feed back. Even though he is a good roleplayer, he did not the free form of the game mechanics, so he was kind of being sarcastic. That is a personal problem and I am not going to ask him back to a game I am running. I was hoping to get more help from him and his wife since they have GMed before. In fact, I am in their Warhammer game and that is going really well.

[Cooper]

I promise that your players have framed scenes before but they just didn't realize they were doing it.  But it is a skill, a muscle that we just aren't used to using in this way.

Man, I told them that too! But, they got overwhelmed. I was very quick to tell them that I am new at this too (which was real obvious) in hopes to not make them feel like it was their fault.

Hope this feedback helps.

P.S.  The game we have recorded has some problems with the way I handled the resolution of conflicts and stakes setting but that is for another time.  First things first: get everyone scene framing.

Also, if they get stuck, they can ask for help but make sure that doesn't turn into everyone just looking at the Producer for the next scene again and again and again.

Good luck.

So far, so good on the advice (thank you). The "Primetime Reminders" and the "[PTA ] how to prep for sessions" topics have helped out too. My biggest problem is that I think I understand, then I find out that I have it wrong again. :-(

[Cooper]

And don't forget -- only the Producer frames scenes. Players take turns setting the agenda and focus and may suggest what's going on, but the Producer has final say.

So, it is the players job to "request scenes" with the three elements: Focus, Agenda and Location. Then it is the Producer's job to frame it. Then whoever wins the stakes gets to narrate it? Is this correct?

In PTA, the concept of scene framing or narration rights allows anyone to make suggestions but in the end it's one person who decides whose ideas to use and in what combination. Any time the player or producer are stuck, they can ask for suggestions. Sometimes, it's a good idea for the producer to encourage suggestions.

Yes, I did a lot of suggesting for scenes.

As for problem and complications -- the Producer gets the first scene so he can intro the thrust of the episode (the "problem"). Basically, it's the episode premise -- base it on the Issue of the character who's in the spotlight, or if no one has a 3 screen presence, focus on the premise of your series. I wouldn't plan much beyond this first scene, some NPCs, and some ways you can complicate things later. But don't try to force your complications into existance -- treat them as ideas you can use if the flow of the game goes that way -- a bandolier of ammo to use when the opportunity offers.

What I was hopping was if there was a way to ease the players into this, without falling getting trapped into the old style of having to prepare everything?

[Cooper]

I really appreciate all of this advice so far. Even Matt wrote to me with a little advice to. So, I figured I should share with you my game:

It originally started out with Firefly, but all it took was one player to get rid of that idea (I found out he was the only one who did not like that idea). All of use have been performers at Renaissance fairs in the tri state area (Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas), so we came up with a TV show that was about a bunch of disgruntled Ren Fair entertainers that have been fired or kicked out of the local big Ren fair. Even the co-owner was tricked out of his part of the management.

So, the disgruntled co-owner hires all of the PCs to start up an opposing fair. All the players were some of the stereo types of these things: Fairy girl, Mermaid, Period Nazi, busty wench and a looser in a very short kilt that buys the all season pass just in hopes to get a job there (he was the best character).

The show's camera work was supposed to be a cross between Reno 911 and The Office. The name of the show was "The Last Huzzah."

Now, I did ad one thing to the premise, but asked the players permission and that was the owner owning a copy of the Necronomicon that he bought off of e-bay. He was getting the rest of his staff from some hell world. I was hopping it would ad that Army of Darkness feel to it also.


Anyway, it turned into me having to re-explain the rules over and over again (I really tried to get them to read the book...it is not very long). Like I said before, two of the players were not happy, two were confused (but enthusiastic) and one was very shy and would come up blank when it was time to suggest a scene.

My biggest problem was trying to figure out how the flow of the game works, and teach them how to bring in scenes (and basically help with the story).

I just think that half of the people were not bought in on the game. I am going to end this game, but now when we get back to another game of PTA, everyone will know what to expect. I really like the rules for this game and want to play this again.

Thanks so far for the advice that everyone has given!

[Alan]

Hi Cooper,

High card narrates, not the winner. You can lose and still narrate.

Narration rules start at the bottom of page 65 and run to page 68.

PTA takes a different approach to roleplaying. Most traditional play involves "being" the character, but PTA asks the player to think about author-level things too. You might find that the players say that the mechanics are "intrusive" at first. But it's just a different approach and it can take time to get familiar enough so it doesn't intrude any more. Things like experiencing what it's like to be a character or being completely accurate about the setting have to take a back seat. The object of PTA play is to make great episodes--together, in the moment, on the fly. Don't sweat the planning; see what comes up at the table.

Between scenes, you might try asking your players "If this were a really cool tv show, where would you end up next?"

Caveat: PTA will never give the deep-character-concentration that some players prefer. Maybe they'll find other rewards in PTA, maybe not. Encourage them to stay with it for a season before they throw it away -- but if they do have a big negative reaction don't force it.

Oh, and you might do a "pilot" like it says in the rules. Focus on the mechanics not the story structure advice. Go around the circle letting each player request a scene. Aim for one conflict draw in each scene. Once the conflict is over, you usually want to end the scene and move on. Producer also gets to end scenes, too. Use your budget and encourage them to give Fanmail. Let the pilot stumble or not into a story.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

[Eero Tuovinen]

About Producer preparation: when I go to the game table, I have the first scene thought up, and a vague (two sentences or so) idea of what the melodrama of the episode will be about. Note, melodrama, not drama; the dramatic relationships of the characters will be determined during the game, but the fact that the characters will have to deal with an alien invasion in this episode is often enough predetermined by the Producer. The book discusses this too, when it distinguishes between high-drama and low-drama series: some series will have an intricate melodrama going on, with lots of plot twists and a plot that leaves the audience speculating about the outcome, while some other series will be all about the human relationships, with little in the way of plot.

So when you're the Producer, you principally need to only prepare the melodrama, which often enough includes the first scene (as the first scene is traditionally used in tv series to introduce a given episode's plot topic). You might want to use the first scene for some character drama, too, if there's nothing particularly pressing going on with the plot, but in that case you the Producer need to have some sense of which characters might actually have some drama between them, or which players would like the opportunity to create some for their characters. During the session proper the players will signal this by their frame requests, so you don't have to worry about it.

Shame about your show, by the way. The idea of a renaissance fair comedy with the Necronomicon would be right up my alley.

[Judd]

Now, I did ad one thing to the premise, but asked the players permission and that was the owner owning a copy of the Necronomicon that he bought off of e-bay. He was getting the rest of his staff from some hell world. I was hopping it would ad that Army of Darkness feel to it also.

Cooper, could you describe how this detail got added in?  Those few sentences give me a gitchy feeling.

Caveat: PTA will never give the deep-character-concentration that some players prefer.

Alan, I disagree entirely.  In a few of the games I have played we really got into our characters and gained deep immersion.

[Cooper]

Now, I did ad one thing to the premise, but asked the players permission and that was the owner owning a copy of the Necronomicon that he bought off of e-bay. He was getting the rest of his staff from some hell world. I was hopping it would ad that Army of Darkness feel to it also.

Cooper, could you describe how this detail got added in?  Those few sentences give me a gitchy feeling.

Oh..... wow, I must have been really tired. What I was trying to say was that I asked the players if I could add in a supernatural element to the story: That the owner of the fair (Scott) had a copy of the Necronomicon (sp?) that he purchased off of e-bay. He had found out it opened a portal to some sort of hell world and was summoning up people and creatures to use as the rest of the staff for the fair (since he needed people to sale turkey legs, funnel cakes and to also clean up the litter).

I was not completely happy with the TV show's premise, so I wanted to add something like that to give it an Army of Darkness feel. I am not sure if the producer (me in this case) has an equal say in the premise, but they liked the idea.

Did that clear it up?

I have heard (through the Durum 3 podcast mostly) that PTA does have potential for deep character stuff. It also has the potential to go more than just a few seasons too. I hope I can find out first hand ;-) That book that Paul Tevis mentioned in his last podcast, "Play Dangerously," got all excited. It may be able to help me out.

[Alan]

Caveat: PTA will never give the deep-character-concentration that some players prefer.

Alan, I disagree entirely.  In a few of the games I have played we really got into our characters and gained deep immersion.

Judd, I started another thread on this and would like to hear more about what you describe.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=25340.0

[Eero Tuovinen]

For what it's worth, I definitely participate in the pitch sessions as a regular participant even when I'm going to be the Producer. So that's not a problem at all as long as you're working as a participant, not an authoritative leader-type.

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh..... wow, I must have been really tired. What I was trying to say was that I asked the players if I could add in a supernatural element to the story: That the owner of the fair (Scott) had a copy of the Necronomicon (sp?) that he purchased off of e-bay. He had found out it opened a portal to some sort of hell world and was summoning up people and creatures to use as the rest of the staff for the fair (since he needed people to sale turkey legs, funnel cakes and to also clean up the litter).

I was not completely happy with the TV show's premise, so I wanted to add something like that to give it an Army of Darkness feel. I am not sure if the producer (me in this case) has an equal say in the premise, but they liked the idea.

Did you ask them and they agree, or did you suggest it and they go "Oooh, cool!"?