New article up

[Clinton R. Nixon]

There's a new article up at the Forge, "More Fantasy Heartbreakers" by the esteemed Ron Edwards.

Feel free to click the reviews link from the front page or at the top of the forum in order to take a look.

[Walt Freitag]

While I agree that people should feel free to click the reviews link, those looking for the new article might get more satisfying results clicking the articles link instead. :-)
- W

[Paul Czege]

Hey Ron,

How about some publication dates for these heartbreakers?

Paul

[Matt Machell]

Interesting article.

I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of "Vampire Heratbreakers" as the new Basic Set Of Assumptions (tm). I can certainly think of a number of games that certainyl seem to have started from the premise of "lets fix what I don't like about the World of Darkness". It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

-Matt

[Ron Edwards]

Whoops!

Undiscovered: 2001

Deathstalkers: copyright '99, '00, '01, '02, but I'm pretty sure the book debuted at Origins 2002. The game has existed at the grassroots level for many years, and it's 1999 "first edition" is a photocopied 660 page set of three-ring binders.

Demon's Lair: no copyright date listed in the text, but I was under the impression, upon meeting the authors, that it debuted at GenCon 2002.

Above, "debut" is not the same thing as "publication date," of course.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

Nice piece, Ron.  Well-written and thought-provoking as ever, and the Vampire Heartbreakers comment parallels some thoughts I've had about "goth clones" like The Chosen, The Everlasting (an interesting one), Immortal, The Legacy, and maybe Witchcraft (though I don't see this one as a Heartbreaker per se).

Thanks for an interesting article.

Best,

Blake

[Edited to place a missing word.]

[Matt Wilson]

It's funny, I was thinking about "space game" heartbreakers just before I reached the end of the article. It particularly interests me as I've never found a space adventure game I was satisfied with, and I've purchased quite a few in vain.

-Matt

[stingray20166]

I'm going to play a troll in my next game!  A friend of mine is running it.  It's a system he designed himself "based on D&D".  :-)

Bring on the sci-fi heartbreakers -- I'd love to see more of this series.  I've never found a satisfying sci-fi game, either.

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Nice piece, Ron.  Well-written and thought-provoking as ever, and the Vampire Heartbreakers comment parallels some thoughts I've had about "goth clones" like The Chosen, The Everlasting (an interesting one), Immortal, The Legacy, and maybe Witchcraft (though I don't this one as a Heartbreaker per se).

Also: Armageddon, Darktown and The Seventh Seal. I would totally include Witchcraft, despite its success, as a noveau-heartbreaker.

Of course, I'd include 90% of what's out there...

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Another Vampire Heartbreaker candidate, I think: Purgatory, by Atomic Hyrax games. I once spent a day with it and Immortal 2nd edition on one knee, scribbling a series of points based out of my copy of Vampire 1st edition on the other.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

I dunno, Jared.  In regards to Witchcraft, maybe I'm confusing "heartbreakers" with "clones."  Witchcraft is damn near identical to Vampire mechanically, and it does some things a helluva lot better.  Come to think of it, Night Life would qualify as a Vampire Heartbreaker as well.

I'm curious: how do Chill and Kult fit into this category?  I'm pretty sure Kult doesn't, or am I now onto Call of Cthulhu Heartbreakers?

Best,

Blake

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I dunno, Jared.  In regards to Witchcraft, maybe I'm confusing "heartbreakers" with "clones."  Witchcraft is damn near identical to Vampire mechanically, and it does some things a helluva lot better.  Come to think of it, Night Life would qualify as a Vampire Heartbreaker as well.

I'm curious: how do Chill and Kult fit into this category?  I'm pretty sure Kult doesn't, or am I now onto Call of Cthulhu Heartbreakers?

I believe Nightlife came out earlier. I'd have to check the archives...

And yeah, you're right...clone <> heartbreaker. I think. If you look at RPGs, you do tend to see some obvious genre clumping going on. Not even genres like fiction genres...but RPG genres...

Mixed-genre games like Rifts and Shadowrun. Post 90's dark games like Vampire (I'd also shoehorn in the "Reality is not what it seems" conspiracy games that came out in the 90's...In Nomine, Kult, Whispering Vault, Witchcraft, etc.).

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

In the (slightly unexpected) groundswell of posts about the new Heartbreakers article, I'm seeing a tendency to call anything and everything a Heartbreaker out of enthusiasm.

Influence is present in any RPG design, I think, and even outright imitation isn't enough for Heartbreaker status.

Nightlife, Purgatory, The Chosen, Immortal ... all are candidates for Vampire Heartbreakers, I think. With a strong nod to Nephilim's influence as well.

But Kult? Call of Cthulhu and Vampire influenced, sure. Chill? Call of Cthulhu imitator, sure. But I, at least, intended that "Heartbreaker" would be a much more specific term.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

Thanks for the word, guys.  I was pretty sure Kult didn't qualify as a Heartbreaker.  And yeah, Jared, you might be right about the chronology of Night Life.

FWIW, there are certainly S-F Heartbreakers.  Web of Stars is one that comes to mind.

Best,

Blake

[Zak Arntson]

Just wanted to drop a line and say this latest article is wonderful. I sure wrote my share of partially-completed Heartbreakers way back. The article's making me want to write another one up, as a fun exercise. Though mine would "fix/combine" basic D&D & D&D3E.

I'm not sure I'd agree with there being Sci-Fi Heartbreakers (unless they came pre-late 80's), because there I haven't seen such a thing as [space game] Sci-Fi, like there is D&D Fantasy. Vampire achieved such popularity that there is a visible Vampire Modern.

Sci-fi RPGs (the ones I've seen) do tend towards a weird blend of Star Trek and Aliens, but it seems like a Heartbreaker family needs to have the Influence->Ur-Game->Heartbreaker based on Ur-Game progression.

Perhaps there should be two new threads? One for discussion of Vampire Heartbreakers, another for Sci-Fi?