HeroQuest weapons and armor

[dunlaing]

I heard a rumor that in HeroQuest, Edges will go the way of the dodo.* This led me to wondering how weapons and armor would be represented in HeroQuest, since they are represented as edges in Hero Wars.

I thought the following might be a good way to represent weapons and armor:

Use the difference between the weapon rank and armor rank as a modifier for the number of APs required to wound.

So if I punch (0 rank) an unarmored person (0 rank), then I need to "spend" 7 APs to inflict a wound.

But if you swing an axe (rank 3) at me (normal clothes-rank 0), then you only need to "spend" 4 APs (7-3+0) to inflict a wound on me.

I haven't seen HeroQuest, so maybe they have a much better solution, but the above came to me and I thought it would encourage the use of wounds in combat (which were rare when we played Hero Wars), especially when someone goes unarmored against a big weapon.

Thoughts?

[dunlaing]

* The Way of the Dodo would be an interesting martial art.

[Ian Cooper]

Armor, Weapons (and in fact all appopriate equipment) now provide a bonus to the relavant ability, for example to Sword and Shield Fighting (or a penalty if more appropriate, say swimming in armor). The numbers have gone through a few versions in playtesting, but IIRC, the version going to layout has the bonuses at the same level as the old ranks (so chainmail is a +4, and a sword a +3).

Obviously when opponents are equally matched the bonuses cancel so you can pretty much ingore kit in those circumstances if you want to.

Magical items have a rating (i.e. they are an ability with the special effect of being an item) which give an automatic (a tenth of the ability. round up) augment to the hero.

[Mike Holmes]

Ian,

How are the augment bonuses different from the "normal" bonuses? I mean, if it's a choice between a "norma" sword with a +3, or a Magic Sword 10w (which gives an auto +3 augment), is there a difference mechanically?

In either case, I'll not be improving my Magic Item ability score when for one tenth the cost I can increase my base Ability.

What am I missing?

Mike

[Palashee]

Ian,

How are the augment bonuses different from the "normal" bonuses? I mean, if it's a choice between a "norma" sword with a +3, or a Magic Sword 10w (which gives an auto +3 augment), is there a difference mechanically?

In either case, I'll not be improving my Magic Item ability score when for one tenth the cost I can increase my base Ability.

What am I missing?

Mike

The way I play this is to separate the mundane attributes of the sword from its magical attributes.

The size, weight, quality etc. of the weapon gives a mundane bonus.

The skill rating is how good the hero is at using the item's magical abilities, not how good he is weilding the sword in combat (that's what his close combat sword skill is for)

For example, A hero with Close Combat (Sword) 18W, and Angurvadel (his magical Blue Sword) 15W gets +3 for it being a sword, plus +3 innate magic bonus.  
Giving a total of 18W +3 + 3 = 4W2

I use the name and/or backstory of the magic item to hint at what the magical effects of the sword look like, and so add flavour to the descriptions of the fight sequences. such as, the blade of the blue sword turns to ice when its magic is used. The description can also be used to add limits to the sword, such as cannot be used against anything associated with water or gives double the bonus against fire.

Hope this helps

Cheers,
Mick

[Peter Nordstrand]

In either case, I'll not be improving my Magic Item ability score when for one tenth the cost I can increase my base Ability.

What am I missing?

Well, if you use your magic item's rating only to augment you are better of improving your base ability instead. However, why not use your Scroll of Illuminating Thoughts 7W as an ability in itself?

Cheers,

/Peter Nordstrand

[Mike Holmes]

However, why not use your Scroll of Illuminating Thoughts 7W as an ability in itself?

I probably will. :-)

This is a good point. We just have to be more creative in what we allow players to do with an ability.

Still, if I have Blefs Generic Magic Sword (that is, cool history, but doesn't seem to do much more than make the user fight well), what sort of things do you see using the Sword's primary Ability for? I can see lot's of Augments, but not much use for the primary Ability.

Or are Generic Magic Sword's just not worth Increasing Ability on by definition. That seems valid to me. They're still worth Cementing for whatever extraordinary bonus they deliver, just not increasing.

Mike

[Ian Cooper]

The +3 Sword bonus (or other bonus as appropriate) is a fixed bonus for a mundane item. You cannot increase it by spending hero points. as it is not an ability, it is just the relative bonus vs. other kit.

An mundane item ability i..e Widowmaker 17 gives you
- the bonus for the mundane item (so a swrod is still +3)
- plus an automatic augment (i.e. does not require an unrelated action to work, it is always on)
- and canbe used in interesting ways. You could use Widowmaker for an example as an augment to your battle boast, pulling it from your scabbard and shouting "My sword Widowmaker has left the halls of the Malani drenched in the salty tears of its women, mourning the loss of their husbands"

[Mike Holmes]

You know, I missed something that Ian's post made me realize. My problem was that it seemed very cost ineffective to increase the augment level, which seems to be the only ability delivered. Ten HP, basically (though the first may only be a few depending on the current level; Widowmaker will only take three). So while the sword can only probably be used to augment, it can augment a lot of stuff. This occured to me, but not the ramification. Which is that by increasing the sword by one level of Augment makes the character one better in a lot of things.

So, as long as you can rationalize that the sword augments ten different things, it might be worth increasing? Well, I still don't see it in practice. Who's going to save up that long for a +1?

Ian, you imply that the auto augment is one per five, and not one per ten as I'd heard. Which is the correct figure? Can you still roll something that gives an auto-augment in HQ?

I'm getting a bit confused. Can anyone straighten me out?

I'm starting to suspect that speculating about how it will all work together is problematic. Maybe we should wait. But damnit, I'm interested! :-)

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

My problem was that it seemed very cost ineffective to increase the augment level, which seems to be the only ability delivered.

It IS cost ineffective to raise abilities that you only use for augments, yes.

Ian, you imply that the auto augment is one per five, and not one per ten as I'd heard.

No he doesn't. Read his first post again. :-)

I'm starting to suspect that speculating about how it will all work together is problematic. Maybe we should wait. But damnit, I'm interested!

You are right on target, Mike. The thing is that (almost) every question raised in this forum lately will be answered in HeroQuest: using affinities and feats, heroquesting, weapons and armor ranks, etc. The best thing to do, I believe (though not necessarily the most satisfying), is to wait until the game is released in June.

/Peter Nordstrand

[Peter Nordstrand]

Ian, you imply that the auto augment is one per five, and not one per ten as I'd heard.

No he doesn't. Read his first post again. :-)

What am I saying? I was SO sure that Ian stated somewhere that the bonus was 1/10th of the ability rating, not 1 per 10. Like this:

Rating 14 = bonus +1 (14/10=1.4)

Rating 15 = bonus +2 (15/10=1.5 round up to 2)

Sorry,

/Peter

[Mike Holmes]

My mistake was looking at Widomaker 17, and assuming that we were still talking about a sword with a +3 Augment as in the earlier example.

FWIW, with a +1 per five, I could see these being raised a lot more often. That's why I asked. Kinda hopefull.

Anyhow, I'll wait for the book. But damnit, it isn't easy! :-)

Thanks,
Mike

[dunlaing]

I'm not sure I like that weapons actually add to your target number. For one thing, it means an equally skilled dagger fighter is represented as having less ability than an equally skilled pike fighter.

I also tend to like systems where you can model the big, strong guy who hits hard but not often. I think my proposal above would model that pretty well (someone with a big-ass sword (6 points bigger than your armor) and a low target number might not hit you often, but he only needs to spend 1 AP to hurt you, so you'll take a hurt whenever he does hit you)

[Ian Cooper]

My mistake was looking at Widomaker 17, and assuming that we were still talking about a sword with a +3 Augment as in the earlier example.

Anyhow, I'll wait for the book. But damnit, it isn't easy! :-)

Sorry yeah there are two bonuses here - one from the sword as an item; one from the automatic augment.

Not long to wait now. It was in layout a couple of weeks ago so June still looks likely

[Mike Holmes]

Sorry yeah there are two bonuses here - one from the sword as an item; one from the automatic augment.

OK, I'm just clarfying this because I think I look dumb if I don't. My mistatke was not that I didn't realize that there were two augments. I got that all along.

My mistake was that in the first example, the augments were listed as:

For example, A hero with Close Combat (Sword) 18W, and Angurvadel (his magical Blue Sword) 15W gets +3 for it being a sword, plus +3 innate magic bonus.
Giving a total of 18W +3 + 3 = 4W2

So I assumed that when you listed Widowmaker as:

An mundane item ability i..e Widowmaker 17 gives you

That this was the same sword from the first example, and that you were saying that a 17 gets you an automatic augment of +3. Meaning, I thought, that this was 17/5 round down = +3.

When, in fact, the examples had nothing to do with each other.

Here's a better question. Can a "normal" sword with it's "normal" +3 be used to augment a "Battle Boast" skill? If so, then the magical version would be worth +6 as an augment, right? Not just the +3 for the magic end, right?

Basically what I'm getting at is to wonder if there's something special about the magical part of the augment. If it can only be used to augment, and can only be used to augment the same things that "normal" bonuses can augment, there's not much different. Basically all swords can be thought of as +3 or higher if magical. I mean, other than the in-game color, there's nothing special under this system for magical augmenters.

That's fine if that's the case, but it seems...I dunno...somehow disapointing.

Anyhow, to get back to Dunlaing's point which I'm thinking might be a good way of making these things different again, the problem I'm having with it is I don't understand what you mean by "spending" AP. If you just mean that's the number you need to have the opponent loose, then, it sounds like you're just trying to get edges back into the game. Which is fine, but I think it's supposed ot be different. So, what am I missing?

Mike