The Forge Archives

Greetings & Well Met,
Just wanted to drop a line thanking HF for putting a link up for my site in the library. I also wanted to ask those interested in joing an indie rpg banner exchange to check out the one I have set up at http://www.futureshadows.com/othr_banexch.htm . I am also interested in other ways of promotion.  Other than the standard methods of saying sending press announcements to sites like rpg.net, I really don't have any developed marketing plan.  Anyone out there willing to share some theory?

Hi Warren, and welcome.

The answer depends on, "promotion of what, exactly?" If we're talking about a full-blown book that is to be distributed in the usual bookstore fashion, then promotion means demonstrating financial stability and profit potential to distributors. I'd definitely recommend an agent like Sphinx Group, or consider the ups and downs of attending GAMA, and all that sort of thing.

On the other hand, if we're talking about the opposite extreme, like a ten-page wowzer of a brilliant little game (Ghost Light being my first pick), then it's a matter of getting website traffic through trading links and building an end-user community, via mailing lists or forum activity.

For those of you who don't know this, I generally think building the fan base and identity of the game should PRECEDE plans for printing and book-promotion and distribution. I even think that those plans should be OPTIONAL, not a default.

My perfect RPG-land would be a sea of playable games available on the internet or via small-press stapled pamphlets, with prices ranging from free to $25 as the authors and owners see fit, and as the direct market will bear. From this sea, some few (again, as the authors see fit) get enough of a fan base to justify going to book form.

I shudder in horror at the current faith in sinking bezillions of dollars into getting the book made, and THEN approaching the distributors, hat in hand, pleading with them to get the game into the stores, and THEN hoping that the game will find favor in some unspecified way out there in that market.

Ranting over (sorry 'bout that). My point is that promotion is a multi-step process and its details depend on which step we're talking about, and also on one's vision of what this game will BE, as a physical and commercial object.

Best,
Ron

Wow, that was a quick response.

Let me fill you in with where I am at.  I am talking a full book published game.  Currently it is around 300 pages.  It is more than half done.  The PC half of the book is complete except for editing and page layout.  The GM half is in a mix of notes and completed works.  I have about halfway of my goal of 80 pieces of artwork.  No cover yet. I have a tentative distribution agreement set up via NeverMore Games (which I have been funding) and Wizards Attic.  Although I am interested in researching other companies.  Sphinx Group looks to be my next internet destination :smile:  I have a decent budget of about $10,000 per year, and have been spending most of it since 1998 when I started on the internet. I have been contacted by a couple of companies about making crpg spinoffd. I have opened up a LLC to do my own publishing, and have got many satisfying quotes from printers. So I think the business aspects I am fairly comfortable with.  If and when I decide to start actually pushing to publish now.

You touched upon my point though.  I want to verify that I have a large enough fan base to support its sales when I do get the book published.  Building the grassroots is what I am currently all about. All of my material is given away for free under a playtest agreement posted on the site.  I am listed in all the top search engines some where although I don't always rank in the top returns.  I get about 300 to 400 unique visitors a day, and about 300 downloads of the game per month.  I am engaged in numerous top # lists, banner exchanges, and other rpg related devices.  What I am haveing a hard time with though is jump starting my message boards, getting more guestbook entries, and hearing more feedback.  The numbers are really not that satisfying without hearing the voices (compliment or criticism) of the audience.  How do you really build a grassroots fan base?  An when is the fan base at a point to truly support the new game?  I know that my next step is prolly to start attending conventions, but this is so mainstream, not in my time budget, and I should really have a published copy before going.

What other alternatives are there for indie publications?

Oops, I said it was half done.  Just wanted to stress that is from my own perspective of what I want to include in the first printing.  The game is completely playable in its current form.

Warren,

You've got the traffic. What you need now is actual play, word of mouth, and volunteers for helping you both with production and promotion.

My suggestion is to move away from the freebie status as quickly as possible. Keep perhaps a very sketchy free download, but it's time to have people buy your stuff.

Options include
- ashcan: a pamphlet or otherwise photocopied bundle of pages, direct-mailed
- PDF: to be sent by e-mail
- HTML on-line with special access

The point is that people would have to pay for whichever one you provide, perhaps in the $5-10 range. If you really want to be nice (I had great success with this), do a shareware in which the acquisition is free but payment is politely encouraged.

Several threads in this forum recount my and others' experiences with generating on-line sales and developing a fan base. I think a lot of that material would be helpful for you.

Best,
Ron

Re:  Tools of the trade.


One of the best reponses we've received on the Apophis site came shortly after we debuted the Sanctus Canon portion of the site.  Basically, with this part, people submit fiction, adventures, or basically anything and we post it for everyone to see.

While we lag greatly in our response (we are sitting on a lot of stuff) and much of it is stuf you wouldn't use to line a birdcage, it has garnered a great feedback portion.  We have used it to see what portions of our game people are interested in and respond well to.  

Another great tool is geting reviews.  Both good and bad reviews create traffic... lots of it.  Even though we got hammered across rpg.net, the response to our site and direct sales were phenomenal.  I highly suggest getting a comp. copy to a reviewer or two in trade for a review.  

From my own experiences, I would ask Ron Edwards or Darren MacLennan.  There is also a new reviewer named MetalMan, who I don't know, but does good reviews.

Truly, however, I have found that it takes two to three months after the media blitz to see a pay-off in sales.  I wouldn't worry too much about lack of a fanbase yet, wait until the con-rush this summer has died down, and make certain you are stuffing flyers and promos everywhere you can.  I know we will gladly hand anything you want out at our booth at GenCon, and I'm certain that you can convince many other people to do the same.

You seem to be on the right track.  Of course, I echo Ron's sentiment that many of the previous posts to this site will likely be helpful.  Keep it up!


Dav

Sorry about the delayed response, my computer has been down since the weekend.  My recommendation stay away from Windows ME unless you want to purchase brand new hardware and software across the board.  So far in replacing things that worked fine in Win98, I have dumped an extra $5000.  Oh well.

Ron,
I totally agree.  I need to have the word of mouth and volunteers.  I have been thinking about doing the switch to trying to make money.  Then again when I do that, I would actually be restricting my content and therefore limiting what could be spread word of mouth.

If I were to do it though I think that I would distribute via pdf since I currently use pdf on the site now.  I had in its infancy had HTML version but the number of tables and the difficulty of attemtping to do any printable page formatting in HTML is not there except for Explorer.  So I canned it.

What I do think might be a good idea is to still offer it on the site for free but to actually sell a laser printed copy for people that are willing to cough up a small sum, until I do the full fledged book later.

Thanks for writing back, I really appreciate the experiences that you have shared.

Dav,
I have totally been trying to work something like this out.  I have found a couple of file upload programs, whether they are other peoples sites, yahoo groups, perl progams and other stuff to install upon the site.  Nothing however has ever been the wonder application that I was hoping for.  What I basically want to do is to have visitors either create online or upload characters, NPCs, and PCs, and upload adventures, and stories of their own devise.  Do you have any suggestions on getting something like this off the ground?  How did you technically achieve this?

About the reiviewers, I assume that I am going to have to track them down myself.  In your opinion what are some of the hotspots for reviews.  I have been hoping the forge would for the last year or so, since I got listed, but this hasn't happened yet.  Plus in my own minds eye there is a lot more I want to do, before I consider it a finished project.  I try to stick to what I think are the hot spots, but god any and everyone is on the net these days.

I think that this is a good place, also webrpg.com, thegpa.org, rpg.net and affiliates, Uncle Bear, SFF World, Dark Holme Keep, Thistle Down Hall etc.  Am I missing some of the hot sites, that I should try to be more involved with?

Thanks for the offer on the flyers for GenCon.  I appreciate the offer greatly and although I don't like to impose on others, I will think about it.  Even if I don't that is an incredibly nice thing to offer to do!

Well I need to run, I still have to reinstall half of my PC, and restore all of my backup files.  I hope to hear you both of you and or others in the future.

Peace,
WAR

Hey man,

It is good to realize when your promoting your game, that there are usually half a dozen gamers a WEEK who post on all the popular gamer sites about their new games. I think it has become so commonplace, that a ton of gamers on the net are just not interested - they block those things out. The way around that is to do something more official - a contest, an amazing color ad, or something.

I think this is the problem with advertising in the US though -- ads are so commonplace that as a society we get more and more use to it, so ads have to get louder, more colorful, faster, and shocking to get our attention.

One of the best ways to show that your game is not Mr. Joe Blow's homebrew original is to actually run games of it. Get on WebRPG.com or on some IRC channel somewhere. Find some gamers and teach them the game. I have had great success running the Wild on WebRPG in the past. It is never too hard to teach them. You will need to be familiar with WebRPG first, which can be a little daunting. The games may not count as playtests (since you are running them), but it will show you if you left out things and what the gamers liked or did not like. Heck, some of them might even want to do some writing for it or teach it to their friends.


Nathan

Warren,

Contact me offline if you need some help with setting up file uploads and online character areas.  I've done things like this before, and I believe that I can help you.

Warren:

I can get you the specific scripting if you want it, but I think we just use a simple link to provide downloadable versions of fanware.  On our new site, the interactive portion will be updatable by the fans (relieving us of the burden).  The system thus far, however, has been to have people email us their stuff, and we look it over/post it.

For creating a PC/NPC and the gamut, I would suggest using a database.  Allow people to enter their own stuff into the database and whip it about using Cold Fusion.  I'm starting to get in over my head here, but I'm certain people such as Clay and others can start to put more input on the technical level.

I know that our new site is using Cold Fusion and Flash X (I don't remember what version it is at now).  We've had success in our test runs with it, using cruciforminjection.com as our testing grounds.  If you are truly wanting the scripting or more technical analysis, I would suggest talking to Jason Gunn at Maxpanix@aol.com  He is our web guy and resident 'puter savant.  He is also very helpful.

Dav

Ok Cool, I am going to contact Clay about the PC/NPC creator tonight or tomorrow...