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I'm currently writing up a playtest version of a game idea I got from watching a bunch of 1940's Mummy movies around Halloween. It got me thinking -- watching monster movies is substantially different (in a BIG way) than playing in a horror rpg.

How so? Simple, when you watch a monster movie, you, the audience aren't participating in a mystery -- you know what the monster is. You sit down to the movie expecting the monster as advertised. I mean, THEM! might have followed the prototypical horror investigation routine, but only the people who missed the advertising didn't know it was a movie about giant ants.

Contrast with Cthulhu, where unraveling the mystery is everything. The monster is basically incidental.

My idea is a horror game that hides no mystery from the players. Everyone sits down to play "insert your favorite monster" game. The key I think is having game mechanics that separate player and character knowledge. The player is in "audience" mode while the characters go through the issues of working out the "mystery."

I won't get too detailed about the system but thought I'd throw this out to see if I can get a reaction here at the Forge, and maybe any pointers. Here's the basic game play as quick as I can sum it up:

Players get together and pick out a monster and a setting. Monsters have  associated major and minor cast members that get distributed to all the players. For example, in a Mummy movie, you got a Mad Egyptian High Priest, a Reincarnated Love, a Stalwart Hero, a Feeble Egyptologist, and usually some Superstitious Ethnic Laborers. CF encourages multi-character play. Yes, no character creation.

The ultimate goal of play is to satisfy all "laws" in play, so the cast members can proceed to the final showdown with the monster. Game play progresses in "scenes." Each scene has a GM-like facilitator (anybody think of a better name here?) who handles pacing, scene description, and delegating stat checks. Players are expected to narrate the outcomes of their cast member's actions in FitM style.

Ok, here's the interesting bits. Any player at the table can force the following: invoke the monster into a scene, make a plot complication, or cause a cast member to do those remarkably stupid things people do in horror movies. Whoever invokes the monster plays the monster for that scene. I'm chucking combat, thinking that damage can be handled by "plot complications." Instead I'm adding a combat-like system for pursuit. Cast members have Run-Away points, and monsters have Stalking points. Losing all Run-away points means the monster caught (and probably killed) you, losing all Stalking points means the cast member got away from the monster in that scene.

I'm not sure if this is an actual Narrativist game, since it seems more like genre emulation to me. Frankly, I'm damn excited about this, more so than any other game I started to work on. It seems like a real beer'n'pretzels one shot style of game that uses a lot of the innovations I've seen here at the Forge. I'm not sure what its similar to -- maybe a more focused Universalis.

Anyway, thanks for any input,

Steve Dustin

Sounds cool, certainly the type of game I'd play.

I'd like to hear more about the "laws", I presume they're genre conventions that must be met. Do the players come up with them as a group, or are they predefined by the GM/Scenario?

As for a GM type name "Host" might fit the horror style you're looking for.

One concern at the moment is that Run Away and Stalking points seem to do the same thing...

-Matt

"Director" would make sense, since it's a movie-esque sort of game.

And I agree with Matt.  Instead of having Run Away points and Stalking points, I would just give both characters and monsters Encounter Points.  That way they can be used for both combat and fleeing/chasing, or whatever the monster and scene calls for - provides added flexibility, simplifies the rules.

Just my thoughts.  I like your ideas so far.
-e.

Have you seen the game, It Came From the Late, Late, Late Show? This has some definite similarities to what you're thinking about. Very much in the way that Extreme Vengenace does, though a bit more Simmy.

Do you want a Silly or Serious atmosphere? Or one of those "so serious that it's funny" sorts of feels?

Mike

It sounds like a lot of fun.  It looks like it would be sufficiently party gamish that you could get non-gamers to try it.  (I'm thinking it would fall in the same playability/accessibility camp as Soap or Bedlam.)

How do you determine who gets to be the Director in the next scene?  Would the Director just pass around the table?  Would the previous scene somehow determine who wins Direction for the next scene?  Or maybe you could bid leftover Points or something like that.

Oh, and how could I forget? Scott Knipe's Human Wreckage, was a recent attempt at this sort of thing that is still a work in progress, IIRC.

Mike

Cool. I got responses. Even some from Mike Holmes. Man, you've gotta be the hardest working poster I've ever seen in my life. You're my hero.

Anyway...

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I'd like to hear more about the "laws", I presume they're genre conventions that must be met. Do the players come up with them as a group, or are they predefined by the GM/Scenario?

Exactly. Laws are genre conventions. Each major cast member will have 1 or 2 laws written up on their character sheet that need to be satisfied before the final showdown scene. The monster will probably have 4 or 5 laws.

An example law would be, for a Mad Scientist, that he must "rail against the injustice of the world ignoring his experiments." Monsters might have a body count they have to satisfy like "kill 1 major and 2 minor characters," or "kill everyone but 1 major character."

The laws are largely set by the various cast members and monster. Still, I don't see why the players couldn't add more laws into play. I'll keep it in mind.

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As for a GM type name "Host" might fit the horror style you're looking for.

I like Host better than Director -- Director implies a level of control that is not really there. That why I was calling it Facilitator -- basically all you do is set the scene up, end the scene, and tell people to make stat checks. Your input on action in the scene is no greater or lesser than anyone at the table.

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And I agree with Matt. Instead of having Run Away points and Stalking points, I would just give both characters and monsters Encounter Points. That way they can be used for both combat and fleeing/chasing, or whatever the monster and scene calls for - provides added flexibility, simplifies the rules.

Wow, I'm really ... resistant to this idea. It makes perfect game theory sense, but I've got a couple reasons I'm inclined not to do it.

1) I can only think of a handleful of scenes in the history of monster movies were the characters attacked the monster, and successfully defeated it in combat BEFORE the final showdown (Tremors comes to mind). Monsters are always more powerful than the characters. The monster always smacks people down with a couple of blows. Only trickery can subdue monsters, not combat (gas for King Kong, tranquilizer for Frankenstein).

For monsters that come in hordes (zombies, triffids, Aliens), the characters may defeat individual monsters, but its the horde they're fighting, and they always run away from it.

Even in a movie like Predator the characters are no match, until the final showdown.

2) A thin difference exists between Stalking points and Run-away points. When you run out of Run-away points, you're pretty much dead. The monster has caught you and you've become the main course. When the monster runs out of Stalking points, your prey has gotten away. The cast member has lived to see another scene (until the monster chases the member again). Contrast with a combat hit point system, when hit points hits zero, you're dead. It's a thin difference, but its probably important to make the consequences of losing your point pool to be specific instead of general.

Of course, I guess I could call it Stalk & Escape Points (SEP), but some reason I love the sound of Run-Away points. When you watch a horror movie, what do you say to the screen? "For God's sakes, Run away! Run away!"

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Have you seen the game, It Came From the Late, Late, Late Show? This has some definite similarities to what you're thinking about. Very much in the way that Extreme Vengenace does, though a bit more Simmy.

I saw it, I never read it or played it. I assumed it was just a straight RPG. Are the similarities about subject matter? Or is there something more?

Hey, thanks for the comments,

Steve Dustin

Quote from: Steve DustinCool. I got responses. Even some from Mike Holmes. Man, you've gotta be the hardest working poster I've ever seen in my life. You're my hero.

Aw, shucks. Thanks.

QuoteI saw it, I never read it or played it. I assumed it was just a straight RPG. Are the similarities about subject matter? Or is there something more?

ICFTLLLS had certtain rules of behavior that remind me of your laws. But they were the same for all characters, and characters were all the "potential victim" type. The only one I remember clearly, and love to quote was "Act appropriately stupid." Which means given a chance to split up, you were supposed to split up. Given the opportunity to check out the basment of flee the house, you check out the basement. When chased by the monster you were supposed to head for a small room and lock yourself in instead of fleeing the building. That sort of thing.

It all lead to very campy play (at least for the two or three times I've played). Which is why I asked you about mood. It seems easy with this sort of game to produce campy. But I think serious would be much more difficult. Even the "so serious it's stupid" atmosphere is difficult. Much easier to go for simple camp. Which, fortunately, seems to bewhere you are going. Just wanted to be sure.

Mike

hi steve. nice game concept. I agree with you on keeping Stalking and Run Away points seperate; as you point out, they serve rather different purposes.

you might want to check out GURPS Atomic Horror. a different feel from the kind of game you are talking about here, maybe, but they have an excellent analysis of the themes of '50s sci-fi/horror films like "Them!" I mainly thought of it when you mentioned how most horror movies, in contrast to most rpgs, are not really mysteries. this was especially true of the atomic horror genre, like "Them!" and the GURPS Atomic Horror worldbook makes that very plain. in that genre, when you told the authorities, they might not believe you at first, but they did eventually ... and that was NOT the end of the movie -- you still had several attempts by the army/navy/air force/marines to destroy the monster before they found its weakness.

oh, and a side note:

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Only trickery can subdue monsters, not combat (gas for King Kong, tranquilizer for Frankenstein).

actually, kong was killed with ordinary bullets. the scene where he realizes he's been shot and is bleeding is one of the most touching scenes I've ever seen.

I think the japanese kong movies may have used gas to kill him, but I've only seen fragments of those. and who knows what killed kong in dino's monstrous remake. probably bad acting.

but you're absolutely right about pure force being ineffective in most monster movies. they almost all deal with discovering the weakness or trick that will stop the monster ... and they all certainly demonstrate early on the ineffectiveness of ordinary combat. you get the scenes with the guy emptying a revolver at the monster (then throwing the gun!) or (in the giant bug and BEM movies) the air force dropping The Bomb on the monster, then everyone staring intently through binoculars... only to discover that The Bomb didn't work.

which genres of monster movie do you plan to include?

Quote from: Steve DustinThe laws are largely set by the various cast members and monster.

Shouldn't there be some things that have to be fulfilled before the monster shows up?  I mean, shouldn't it kill several minor characters under mysterious circumstances?  Shouldn't there just be a hand come out of nowhere and grab someone, right before the scene goes black? Even recent post-modern monster movies like "Signs" followed this convention.

I suppose you might be able to handle this with "pre-laws" that everyone could try to fulfill early on, or something like that.

QuoteI like Host better than Director -- Director implies a level of control that is not really there.

There's always "Dramaturg" if you want a theater/movie-specific term.  I've always wanted to use that for a low-powered GM-type role.

Later.
Jonathan

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you might want to check out GURPS Atomic Horror.

Actually I ran a GURPS Atomic Horror campaign once: Attack of the Muck Monsters. Someone else ran an adventure based on the Giant Gila Monster. One of my favorite RPG experiences.

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actually, kong was killed with ordinary bullets.

True, but in Creature Feature, that would be the final showdown scene. Earlier in the movie, on Skull Island, Carl Denham (the movie producer) subdued Kong by using gas bombs, which enabled him to get him onto the ship, and to New York.

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and who knows what killed kong in dino's monstrous remake. probably bad acting.

Attack helicopters atop the World Trade Center.

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you get the scenes with the guy emptying a revolver at the monster (then throwing the gun!) or (in the giant bug and BEM movies) the air force dropping The Bomb on the monster, then everyone staring intently through binoculars... only to discover that The Bomb didn't work.

These are great laws BTW, mind if I borrow them?

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which genres of monster movie do you plan to include?

In the end, I'd like to be able to accommodate every monster movie ever -- but right now, I think I'm gonna need extra rules to handle "horde" monster movies (like zombies--although there's plenty of great zombie RPGs on the Net **cough** Dead Meat **cough**) and those "wrestling" monster movies like Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man or Destroy All Monsters. Right now, I'm just getting the basic game down.

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Shouldn't there be some things that have to be fulfilled before the monster shows up? I mean, shouldn't it kill several minor characters under mysterious circumstances? Shouldn't there just be a hand come out of nowhere and grab someone, right before the scene goes black? Even recent post-modern monster movies like "Signs" followed this convention.

Yes, mechanically I think I'll be able to handle it. First, I'll have "trigger" laws which have to be satisfied before certain things can happen. For example, in werewolf movies, there's a dramatic transformation scene before the werewolf can run out and mutilate people without impunity.

Still, what I think you are getting at is something slightly different. To make sure the monster doesn't have an equal chance of showing (or not showing) at the doctor's office versus the spooky old ruins, certain locations will give a bonus to "invoking the monster." Heck, the fact that its nightfall should give a bonus. Also, the more the monster shows up, the more likely the monster will show up, with an increasing stat that makes invoking it easier. As long as your major cast members stay from the monster's "hotbeds" of activity, until later in the game, that should keep the monster chowing down minor characters for awhile.

Thanks for the comments,

Steve Dustin