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Following on from a question in another forum, I ask:

I think that most of this forum's users (examples of progressive humanity that they are) would agree that one of the biggest problems in games, and maybe the one that leads to the most unsatisfied gamers, is when what a game actually delivers doesn't match the way that the game is advertised.

Now, most games don't have too much in the way of ad space: back-cover blurb is about it. Websites go a certain way to resolving this, as do things like in-store demos and Con games and so on. Are there other ways? Are there aspects of the problem I'm overlooking?

How do you set customer expectations so that they get what they think they're getting?

Oh boy! James, thanks for starting this thread.

First of all, I'd like to say that the issue is a very general one, applying to all manner of commercial products or experiences. I cannot tell you how often someone tells me how "lousy" a movie is, and then, upon questioning, justifies the viewpoint by citing his or her expectations prior to seeing it and considering the movie to have betrayed them.

Since I doubt the solution is to transform, magically, the human population into beings who do NOT perform this cognitive-transference trick, we have to accept it as reality. The next step is to minimize it if at all possible.

However, second, specific to our hobby, comes the interesting and semi-to-all-dysfunctional production and distribution of role-playing games. The consumers are VERY removed from the creators. For a typical RPG, author X's contribution goes to publishing company Y, then to distributor Z, then to retailer A, and then finally to the customer - and that's IF it sells in that store, as a return to Z and then retailers B and C might come into it too.

Where does the customer GET his or her expectation regarding a role-playing game? Unfortunately, given that it's very hard for these expectations to be informed by the creator, the customer often relies on the following:
1) The precise range and specifications of the games he or she has already experienced.
2) The vague and sound-bytey (mis)information provided by what someone heard someone else say; this may be internet-based or face-to-face.
3) Social pressure at the game store, either from the retailer or the in-store hangout culture.
4) Print advertising, which is frankly not much more than an art-driven "grab" tactic.

So that leaves the designer/publisher in a pickle. It seems inevitable that an unacceptably high proportion of potential and actual customers will be predisposed to feeling betrayed by the game - and, in the manner I described about movie-goers, blaming the product.

Solutions?
1. Well, I'm biased - I think the creator should also be the package-design authority and the publisher, which cuts out a hell of a lot of steps. One benefit is that the ad copy, the cover, any teaser text of any kind, may accord with what is in the game's package.

2. Don't lie. If there's no setting, say so. If it has fifty "story seeds," don't claim that it has "scenarios." Advertise with art that in subject or mood accords perfectly with the game. Know your Premise and state it clearly. Know the range of RPG design, so that you don't claim simultaneously that it's "universal" and you can "pick from 11 character races."

3. Establish and maintain a presence, and foster a game-culture, on-line. That is the one solid weapon we now have that didn't exist before - for instance, I can actually rep Sorcerer day in and day out, providing not only accurate information but also a sense of "support" that until now was only possible by pumping out supplements. If someone "hears" something about one of my games, they can e-mail me - and they know I'm there.

Whew! Those are some of my starting thoughts on the matter. Others' responses and experiences on James' query are eagerly anticipated.

Best,
Ron

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On 2001-08-30 14:32, Ron Edwards wrote:
However, second, specific to our hobby, comes the interesting and semi-to-all-dysfunctional production and distribution of role-playing games. The consumers are VERY removed from the creators.

Is the above as true as you seem to be expressing? As an example, I'd say movie directors, and TV series producers are very far removed from their consumers. You could say the same for novelists. If you compare rpg designers to other mediums the designers are often very close to the audience (which does not mean it goes smoothly - but they are only a step away).

In fact they are so close its laughable to call the 'industry' an industry in many cases - very little separates the professional designer from the amateur?

As an example, it's quite easy to keep in contact and get 'the goods' on a good number of White Wolf games, from the mouths of the designers, well before the game is released - and they are one of the 'bigger' publishers/game design outfits. These guys post on their own boards and sometimes even sites like rpg.net.

I suppose it is a matter of degree.

I also tend to think that the majority of gamers are so egotistical that even repeated, honest and informed explanation by designers, however close they are, will make little difference.They either still see they game how they want it, or if they 'get it' they then go on telling you why it should have been designed how they expected it to be.

May be I am synical, but I've found, in my experience, very few people are capable of thinking 'out of the box' or beyond their immediate surroundings, implications or future.
_________________
Ian O'Rourke
http://www.fandomlife.net">www.fandomlife.net
The e-zine of SciFi media, and Fandom Culture.

[ This Message was edited by: Ian O'Rourke on 2001-08-30 18:04 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Ian O'Rourke on 2001-08-30 18:05 ]

Ian,

When I speak of the width of the gap between designer and customer for RPGs as large, I am not comparing it to the major media like film and TV. I'm thinking of it as a hobby with some commerce mixed in as a sideline.

I agree with you about role-playing's weak claim to the term "industry." That dovetails exactly with my point. I suggest that the gap that does exist works against the interests of fellow hobbyists, one who's designed a game and another who'd like to play it. For a HOBBY, the gap between RPG designer and player is huge.

I'm not sure what to make of your assessment of the potential for change ... I'm not talking about changing the PEOPLE, but rather about changing the PRODUCT and its advertising, and that is certainly possible to do, at least if I own my game and have complete control over how it's presented, as well as name-recognition in the hobby-culture which makes it easy to ask me things.

We may differ on how effective that change may be, and it may come down to percentages ... after all, I'm aiming for a positive difference in sales of any magnitude at all, not a wholesale sweeping wave of approval of the game. You are of course free to perceive that even a small positive difference in sales is not possible. I suggest that your citing White Wolf actually supports my point, in that they have taken pains to reduce the gap and thus clarify exactly what the game is to people as potential customers.

Best,
Ron

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On 2001-08-31 09:32, Ron Edwards wrote:
I suggest that your citing White Wolf actually supports my point, in that they have taken pains to reduce the gap and thus clarify exactly what the game is to people as potential customers.

Well, they also have time on their side. The WoD games have been on the market for like ten years now, and are pretty much a known quantity. This is a tremendous advantage for the prospective buyer, since he or she is very likely to know another gamer with the product, or to be able to solicit opinions. I think most people know what to expect from a WoD game these days.

However, even they are not completely immune to this problem. Look at the flurry over Hunter, which was widely perceived to be one way and turned out to be quite another.

But think of Sorcerer, for example. For those of you who didn't have the privilege of seeing Ron work it at GenCon, he can express what the game is about (who better) and what is appealing about it in a quick and interesting way. But you can't put Ron in a box and send him to your local game store. Right now Sorcerer is available only through the website (at least, I haven't seen it in my FLGS), so that's a bad example.

Some companies try, of course: DP9 has its Pod Corps, FFG has its Flight Crew, GW has its Outriders - guys trained in the game who are big enthusiasts and who are, basically, sent to explain it to the uninitiated. A great asset, and probably not hard to manage ... if you're Games Workshop.

Someone (Dak?) once suggested that a freelance corps of demo guys be created who would devote themselves to learning new games and spreading the word. That might work.

Other good things: those little quickstart versions of games you get free in stores or online, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice. I like those. Once again, though, freebies in gamestores is surely a pretty high price option, especially the snazzy ones that, say, WW puts out.

Short form: I dunno.

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Someone (Dak?) once suggested that a freelance corps of demo guys be created who would devote themselves to learning new games and spreading the word. That might work.

Hey, that was my idea on GO. We were going to be Game Rangers or something.

I still like the idea. And Given the dedicated sorts of individuals here on the Forge, we might be able to get it going. Essentially, as I see it, people would post saying that they'd be willing to demo games in their area. Then indie (or other if they wished) game producers could hire them out, the compensation usually being in the form of free product. Good freelancers would distribute information about how to get feedback directly to the designers. In this way the designers would know that the person doing the demo was doing a good job (or not) by the quality and quantity of the feedback.

We could be the Forgers or something. If Clinton and Ron prefered they could personally screen the persons interested to assure greater quality. The return for their efforts would be greater exposure for the site (we'd, of course need shirts with the nifty Forge logo; why were these not made available at GenCon?). DAK seemed interested in doing it at GO, but somehow it never materialized (problems with the management or something).

Make any sense?

Mike Holmes

As I mentioned in the Sorcerer forum, I am in urgent need of exactly this service - whoever wants to run a Sorcerer demo, let me know immediately.

This is exactly what all creator-owned books need if they hit the stores, especially during the month between arrival and re-stock orders.

Best,
Ron