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I was just wondering what all you published game designers pay for your art.

My game Kayfabe is reaching completion and I'm in the process of getting some art together for it.  I'll be using pen and ink B&W illustrations inside and a full color cover.

Also, I was wondering which is better.  Should I send myself headlong into debt and pay for full rights to the art I use, or should I save some money and only pay to use the art for a single print run of 500 to 1000 copies?

And does anyone know how I can get ahold of Lightning Press?  Their web site isn't working.

,Matt G.
http://www.angelfire.com/games3/errantknight/kayfabe

Unless the artwork is so damn good you cannot stand the thought of not using it on any future editions, I'd go with the one-time rights. Especially since this is a self-published deal. The art of staying alive as a self-pubber is to walk the fine, edgy line between being a total cheapskate and taking risks. Usually, heavy duty risk takers take the Great Plunge in the end. But there are exceptions to the rule and Kayfabe could very well be one of them.

James V.

P.S. As an artist, I'd charge about $10 to $15 for a b&w drawing, $20 to $30 for color, and at least $100 for a cover. If your artist is already published, he may ask for more, but in this industry there are few individuals who can afford to turn down commisions.

Hey,

Check out the Freelancer link at the Adept Press website to see my artist policy. It's for interior art only; covers are handled case-by-case.

http://www.adept-press.com

Best,
Ron

  Speaking from the point as an artist, I'd agree and say unless you have really good art, be cheap.  In fact, I believe quality art is worth a lot more than quantity art.    There is some artwork that will always stand out to everyone who's bought a game, and some art no one can remember.  Good art is worth the money, bad art eats space and cash, and doesn't just show you're a cheapskate, but also shows bad taste.

My recommendations for acquiring art:

1) Always see at least 10 finished pieces of art, in the style/genre that you intend to use.  Unfinished art doesn't count.  If they tell you they can draw a certain subject or style, but can't show you, don't pay for it.

2) Always triple the time you think its going to take to finish the art.  Don't rely on a piece of art, don't let one artist hold up the project.  If they miss it, they miss it(unless it's that spectacular), if its ok, think if you wan the art for your next project.

3) You will get what you pay for.  Anyone charging what you are willing to pay is probably not professional.  If you want something cheap, go to an art school and start looking at portfolios.  If a student is charging what you're willing to pay, give them a little more, that way they'll come back for your next project.

4)If you have any doubts see #1, it will save you more trouble than anything else.

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2) Always triple the time you think its going to take to finish the art.

Definitely.  If, as an artist, you think it will take you a week, plan for a month.  That way you are covered if the customer wants any changes made or an entirely different illustration; it also gives you time to do a number of differing compositions, let the customer choose the "look" he prefers and let you then flesh it out.

This also applies to publishers, if you only have a week to get a piece of art done, better find someone who can finish the whole piece in two days (good luck!).  Hence, plan as far ahead as possible.

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Don't rely on a piece of art, don't let one artist hold up the project.

No kidding.  If the artist doesn't come through by their deadline or within a reasonable amount of time, and there's no good reason for it (such as being hospitalized), don't use them again.  And hope you can find someone who can do the illustrations on short notice, or hope the project won't suffer from the lack of art.

Find someone more professional to handle your illustration needs; after all, if they care so little about the artwork, chances are that the readers will be equally uncaring or unimpressed.

I've seen a book delayed by six months thanks to a lazy artist (and bad management).  The problems this caused with fans was telling (Imagine hearing the phrase, "As soon as we get the art, it will be available!  Just a few weeks!" for six months).

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3) You will get what you pay for.  Anyone charging what you are willing to pay is probably not professional.

I had one gentleman who wrote to me asking for prices for a typical color cover.  I quoted him my regular price.  Now, it wasn't in the two-digit range, but it also wasn't what you generally pay for full-page color pieces.

In fact, I am continually surprised by how much writers and consumers believe good art should cost them, or rather, how much they think it is worth.

I'm not speaking of anyone on the Forge (certainly everyone I've interacted with here has understood and appreciated the worth and effort that gets put into artistic endeavors, and has paid me what I've considered a reasonable amount), but forays into the world of for-pay art have resulted in my understanding that (apparently) $100 is really expensive for a page-sized image.

I think it is time those looking for artwork to grace the covers or interiors of their work look at the logistics of a piece of artwork: at $100 an artist isn't even earning minimum wage.  If (s)he has materials expenses (and most do), he's making much less.

How long do you think it takes to create a typical piece?
I've only ever put out two good pieces in eight hours; typically, I measure the work on an art piece in days, not hours (the Sorcerer cover was well over 60 hours of work, not including the first draft which was rejected and some of the compositioning).
I spent over a month on it, often staying up well into the wee-hours of the morning (the only time I could work in peace).  Most artists do.  Check around sometime; ask how long it takes most artists for large, quality color pieces: a month...two months...four months.

A month of work, folks.  I'm a skilled professional.  How much am I earning for a month of skilled labor?

I earn more at my day job than I do creating artwork...in fact, I'd earn more at McDonald's as a cashier.  I'm downright cheap.  I'm an art whore, banging out pieces for the climax of creation and the ego stroking that comes with someone liking my work so much they're paying me to use it and exposing it to others!

I could have charged well over a thousand for the Sorcerer cover and been well within a reasonable price range.  And some writers complain that $100 is too much money; let alone hitting them with prices like $250 or $500.

The individual I mentioned above, who wrote to me asking for a price on a color cover: No response, so I wrote him again, asking if the price was too steep or if we could work something out.  Still no response.

Completely unprofessional of him.  This is someone I would not work with, even if six months from now they write back and ask if I'm willing to do the cover for them afterall.  (If they apologized and began to act professionally, then perhaps, but suspiscion would still reign until the individual proved trustworthy).

Why?  Would-be publishers: if you don't respond in a timely fashion to a simple e-mail, the artist wonders if he'll get his check this year, or ever?  If the product even exists or if it will be finished?  Show you are a professional.  If you don't act professional, professionals will not work with you (because they're not willing to take a hit; this is their livelihood, or part of it, and a considerable investment of time and energy (and even money)).

Professional courtesy demands a reply even if you aren't interested, at the very least a "Thank you.  I'll be in touch if I decide to go with you." or "Thank you for responding, but the price is too steep for my budget." or whatever suffices.

Now, those of you on the Forge who have worked with me, I know I come off sounding like a real bastard above, which you know isn't true (unless you're hiding your true feelings from me (I hope not!)).  But I felt this was all appropriate to point out to would-be publishers and art-seekers, who may not have ever thought of any of this beforehand.

We're used to seeing beautiful paintings and stunning images and not realizing how much work, effort, sweat and soul go into them.  It isn't simply putting pen, pencil or brush to paper or canvas and ta-da.  It isn't like snapping a photograph or glorified notebook doodling.  It is exhausting, sometimes frustrating, it is involved, it is hard work.

Just for those of you who want to know what SHOULD go into a piece of art you intend to use or reuse:

1) Thumbnails
 These can be anywhere from a half dozen to a few hundred sketches, doodles and ideas.  Ever wonder where disney gets its books of "The Making of"?  This is going to eat up more time depending on the medium, detail and size of art.

2) Roughs
 This is where you will probably come in. Most artists SHOULD(again, understand, this is how professionals do it) give you at least 3-5 roughs to choose between.

3) Pre-finished artwork
  This is the last point to make minor changes.  It is easier to do so with Photoshop or other computer scannable art, but don't ask for major changes at this point.  The more you can't make up YOUR mind, the longer it's going to take.  Understand that if an artist tells you a piece is going to take 2 weeks, its going to take 2 weeks AFTER you've ok'd the design.

Of course, this completely skips all the intermediate details, but again, this gives you an idea of what you've got to work with.

Some other options that can save you time/money:

Look for people already with finished artwork you want to use(aka anything in the portfolio).  This lets you know what to expect, and it's already done.

Offer exposure, a chance to do more than spot illustrations, perhaps graphic design, maybe some characters, or a chance to write or creatively add to your game.

Offer royalties or a percent of the profits.  Yes, this is a nasty area to jump into, but then again, it could come off much cheaper than a simple spot sale if you're aiming really small print run.

Quotegreyorm wrote:

I'm not speaking of anyone on the Forge

Me neither.

QuoteCompletely unprofessional of him.  This is someone I would not work with, even if six months from now they write back and ask if I'm willing to do the cover for them after all.  (If they apologized and began to act professionally, then perhaps, but suspicion would still reign until the individual proved trustworthy).

Why?  Would-be publishers: if you don't respond in a timely fashion to a simple e-mail, the artist wonders if he'll get his check this year, or ever?  If the product even exists or if it will be finished?  Show you are a professional.  If you don't act professional, professionals will not work with you (because they're not willing to take a hit; this is their livelihood, or part of it, and a considerable investment of time and energy (and even money)).

I remember the time I had to physically track down a company at their Gen Con display and guilt them into paying me for the cover of a piece they had on display!  While the amount of labor I had put in was more about vanity work, I still wanted at least the token payment in a timely fashion, humph!

(This was around or before Wizards of the Coast's released Magic the Gathering, back behind the relatively new TSR castle, and it was only a completely black and white supplement for the company's systemless city/product.  I mean it was for their thieves quarter product, but I hardly think that should mean they could rip me off.  Besides, I really liked the image of the elfin prince struggling to remove his ornate ring for the female back-alley robber!  Anyone remember it?)

Fang Langford (who realizes maybe he's been in this business far longer than he thought....)

[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-10-09 09:10 ]