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In GNS Model Discussion

4/29/2003 Thierry Michel: Gamism and gamer's games
Toying a bit with NeverwinterNights (a computer game using the D&D rules) got me wondering: are RPGs "gamer's games" ? Taken literally, I suppose the answer would be yes, because…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Thierry Michel, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, Mike Holmes, Jay Turner, clehrich, M. J. Young, Cassidy, Valamir, greyorm, jdagna, Emily Care, Jeffrey Miller, John Kim, Paganini, deadpanbob.

4/28/2003 jdagna: Better/worse Narrativist (split)
Maybe this is a good time to throw out a question I've been mulling on. I come from that Sim/Actor background and happen to enjoy it very much, but I've…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: jdagna, Ron Edwards, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, Mike Holmes, clehrich, soundwave, Eric J-D.

4/18/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Layered Premise
On the drive home last night, something occured to me about Premise in Narrative play. That is, that it can be layered. This may be old news but I'll explain…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, lumpley, John Kim.

4/5/2003 Felix: Model or something more?
Hello, everybody. Registered user 1,399 here, for those keeping track. I’ve been lurking for several months, so I hope I have a decent handle on theories here. (I also hope…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Felix, cruciel, Mike Holmes, Jack Spencer Jr, Ron Edwards, ADGBoss, clehrich, Valamir, talysman, soundwave, Eric J-D.

4/4/2003 Gordon C. Landis: Creative agenda == Explorative agenda?
Here's a thought that has been brewing since "creative agenda" was mentioned as a possible solution to the confusion around Narrative (or whatever) Premise vs. general overal game premise .…
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Participants: Gordon C. Landis, Ron Edwards.

4/4/2003 RpgAlexWyld: GNS: What is it?
Sorry, I'm new to the Forge. Can anyone discribe what Gamist, Narativist and Simulationist is? I have no clue... Thanks
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: RpgAlexWyld, bladamson, Matt, Ron Edwards, Valamir, AmarPK, Tonic.

3/29/2003 talysman: Gamist/Narrativist hybrid: possible or impossible?
I thought I'd throw out some thoughts/questions that have been churning in my mind for a while and see what other people concluded. a lot of these questions have surfaced…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: talysman, Clinton R. Nixon, Ron Edwards, Mike Holmes.

3/20/2003 Maarzan: Dramatism as RPG´s socialism
The idea occurred to me that Dramatism could be an earlier stage of narratism like socialism is thought of as a phase of dictatorship before true equality can be reached.…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Maarzan, greyorm, Ron Edwards, Bob McNamee, Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes.

3/13/2003 Daredevil: Exploration of Player
First see http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=56049#56049 for the main thread. This is basically split from it and is a discussion on how I feel what I was writing about there is relevant to…
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Participants: Daredevil, Ron Edwards, Le Joueur, Nathaniel, clehrich, Emily Care, John Kim, Jack Spencer Jr, Gordon C. Landis, M. J. Young.

3/7/2003 talysman: Gamism (split from Elucidating / microcosm)
I'd also correct the statement about Gamism. I don't think it's concerned with matters of character power, necessarily, or with winning (although a "sense of winning" might be different matter...)…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: talysman, Ron Edwards.

3/4/2003 Matt Wilson: Is my game N/S or just S?
The game I'm working on has no overtly stated N Premise. Does that exclude it from being a N game entirely? I had this idea from an interview with Joss…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Matt Wilson, Mike Holmes.

3/4/2003 arxhon: Elucidating GNS via microcosm situations?
This might not be the appropriate forum for this, but i'm asking about GNS so.... I was running a game of WFRP last year (ducks hurled refuse from the Nar-gang),…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: arxhon, clehrich, Ron Edwards, Valamir, Mike Holmes, M. J. Young, Bob McNamee.

3/3/2003 Sylus Thane: Exploring the Narrative of the Simulated Gamist world
I know the following could just as easily fit within the Actual Play forum but I feel the overall gist of what I am about to talk about is better…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Sylus Thane, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

3/3/2003 Drew Stevens: GNS- Questioning Gamist
Hooray for random shower tangential thoughts! Verification: The primary Gamist goal for playing a game is they want to Win. They are playing to try and beat someone, either the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Drew Stevens, quozl, Ron Edwards, Valamir, Jack Spencer Jr, Walt Freitag, ethan_greer, Mike Holmes, lumpley, M. J. Young, greyorm, talysman, JMendes.

2/27/2003 Tonic: What's GNS?
I'm in the dark on this.
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Tonic, cruciel, Mike Holmes.

2/19/2003 Jeremy Cole: Narrative Premise.
In RPG terms, I have seen Narrative Premise given mostly as a question, such as "What will you risk for..." or "What price will you pay for...". Now, I always…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jeremy Cole, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, Valamir, contracycle.

2/19/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: GNS will fade into the background of RPG Theory
I realized something very important about GNS which is that it will and should fade into the background of the theory. I doubt if it will fade away entirely. It…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, Bankuei, Rob MacDougall, M. J. Young.

2/17/2003 Bankuei: Premise on a Platter
Premise has been summed up, most simply as, “What do you do?”, or “What is this game about?” Looking at Ron’s review of octaNe, and his conparison to Inspectres, it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Bankuei, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr, bowlingm, Mike Holmes.

2/16/2003 ThreeGee: octaNe == Sim: Color ?
Hey all, In Ron's recent review of Jared's octaNe, he states that the game falls into the Sim camp, specifically as a Sim: Color-facilitating game. My personal reaction is, "WHAT!?!"…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: ThreeGee, Clinton R. Nixon, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, Maurice Forrester, Jared A. Sorensen, Mike Holmes, Tim Gray.

2/13/2003 Mortaneus: Tri-level GNS play & Tron
Hmm....I can think of a possible way to incorporate all three into a game design...don't know if this would work or not...but.... Concept: TRON (the movie) Play the users from…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mortaneus, Ron Edwards, contracycle, Mike Holmes, Walt Freitag, Jack Spencer Jr, szilard, Stuart DJ Purdie.

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Subsequent Topics
In GNS Model Discussion

5/6/2003 Ben Lehman: Help a GNS illiterate?
Everyone is looking for something-- Goals, Desire and RPGs My name is Ben Lehman, and I am GNS-illiterate. No matter how many times I read Ron's essays, I can't seem…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ben Lehman, Garbanzo, Paganini, Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/6/2003 Ben Lehman: The Gentleman Gamist
Yes, I know I confessed my misunderstanding of the Model just now. But I think I have a good grasp on Gamism, and since its natural place and appeal seem…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ben Lehman, Ron Edwards, clehrich, Mike Holmes.

5/7/2003 Harlequin: When the Drift is the Fun Part
This is an interesting thought I had a while back, and had been saving for a rainy day. It rained over in Elegance and Deliberateness, so hey, let's crack this…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Harlequin, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, cruciel, Walt Freitag.

5/13/2003 Mortaneus: Establishment vs. Development
In the 'Help a GNS illiterate?' thread, Garbanzo stated the following: G vs S vs N: I'm a noble Paladin, all about sanctity of life, yada yada. Do I loot…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mortaneus, Valamir, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, jdagna, Emily Care, M. J. Young.

5/14/2003 Emmett: Character improvement (split from older thread)
Story models aside, (I don't agree that the intent of an RPG is to emulate a novel, although they have some simmilarities) without an advancement mechanic, or a overly limited…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Emmett, Ron Edwards, Mike Holmes, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Balbinus, arxhon.

5/17/2003 ThreeGee: Are kewl powerz inherently Gamist?
Hey all, I ask the question, "Are kewl powerz inherently gamist?" because many people strongly imply the answer is yes--that only munchkins would play a character with kewl powerz. However,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: ThreeGee, Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Valamir, M. J. Young.

5/18/2003 Wormwood: Decision Merging: An Appoach to Hybridization
First, a little history: A while back there was a cyberpunk based CCG called Netrunner, put out by WotC using the same information property as Cyberpunk 2020. This game had…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, Walt Freitag, Mike Holmes.

5/19/2003 Wormwood: Drumming II (split)
I'd actually think more in terms of a tuba, but that's just the brass player in me. This sort of behavior, especially in the context of what Mario said about…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Ron Edwards.

5/19/2003 iago: The Three Sentence Understanding
I've read (or tried to read) the GNS articles, and I don't honestly feel like I've come away from them all that much more enlightened about it all. A major…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: iago, Bankuei, talysman, M. J. Young, Wormwood, jburneko, ThreeGee, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/21/2003 taalyn: Narrativism and Morality?
It seems that the primary method of explaining Narrativism is in terms of moral and/or ethical decisions. Why is that, and why isn't the style renamed to be less opaque?…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, Mike Holmes, talysman, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, M. J. Young.

5/22/2003 epweissengruber: Kewl Powerz -- Emphasizing "Kewl"
Kewl powers are also an important part of color. Some players like to imagine their characters doing neat/cool/groovy things and don't always think about how those powers can get them…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: epweissengruber.

5/22/2003 ThreeGee: Pan-reward-ism
Hey all, We have been over (and are still going over) some of this before, but I want to try a different spin on the topic. There are hardly any…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: ThreeGee, Ron Edwards, clehrich, M. J. Young, cruciel, John Kim, C. Edwards.

5/23/2003 clehrich: Cr.Ag., GNS, BV, and Other Acronyms
In a lengthy series of recent threads, there has been debate about various possible "new" models and, among other things, their relationship to GNS. I could quote extensively; instead I'm…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: clehrich, lumpley, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, John Kim, Valamir, cruciel, Eric J-D, M. J. Young, Matt Snyder, Walt Freitag, Mike Holmes.

5/25/2003 heinrich: The Problem With GNS
Within the constellation of arguments in favor of the GNS model, the contrast between simulationism and gamism comes to mind as a problematic example that highlights the problem with the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: heinrich, ethan_greer, Alan, clehrich, M. J. Young, jdagna, Jeffrey Miller, Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Garbanzo, Valamir, epweissengruber, Christopher Kubasik, talysman, Ron Edwards.

5/26/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Term debate: "Instance of Play"
One of the core concepts is instance of play since it is over and instance of play that GNS behaviors are observable. The problem is that it have a connotation…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Alan, Clinton R. Nixon, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/27/2003 Stuart DJ Purdie: Hybrids - looking for an understanding of
I've been thinking about what a hybrid is lately, particularly after Decision Merging: An Appoach to Hybridization. What it mostly inspired in me is confusion over what a hybrid…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Stuart DJ Purdie, clehrich, MK Snyder, Wormwood, Mike Holmes, cruciel, Ron Edwards, Walt Freitag, Valamir.

5/28/2003 Ron Edwards: The airplane issue
Hello, From the thread The problem with GNS, I was able to extract a single question of worth: "Heinrich" wrote, I have to wonder what the value of GNS and…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Jeffrey Straszheim, Matt Snyder, Kester Pelagius, Alan, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, Matt Wilson, jrs, Wormwood, epweissengruber, jdagna, deadpanbob, ethan_greer, Jeffrey Miller, Mike Holmes, Walt Freitag, Piers Brown, Gordon C. Landis, clehrich, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Valamir, Paul Czege.

5/29/2003 Mike Holmes: Applicability of Game Theory
[quote="Walt Freitag"]Game theory has no problem with different players placing different values on different aspects of the outcome. But it requires all that information -- that is, the payoff for…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, deadpanbob, Wormwood, epweissengruber, Jeffrey Miller.

5/29/2003 Mike Holmes: Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited
Fine, Ralph wants to put out that I've got some half-assed unformed theory working? I'll play along. Besides this has been eating away at me for so long that maybe…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, clehrich, Valamir, Matt Wilson, jdagna, cruciel, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, talysman, ethan_greer, C. Edwards, Ron Edwards, John Kim, Gordon C. Landis, Wormwood, Cassidy.

5/29/2003 Wormwood: Technical Play and the one word GNS
In an earlier thread I suggested that the three GNS modes seem describably by what questions are asked by the player making the decision. I find however, that while this…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, jdagna, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

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