Sorcerer and Sword hit my mailbox today...anyone else got theirs' yet?

It looks awesome! Kudos Ron...very cool.

- Scott

That means mine is probably in my mailbox as we speak! Now I'm itching to get out of this cube and home to check it out!

Paul

Yowza. Got mine last night. It has me rarin' to go cut a swath through yowling ape-creatures.

Best,

Blake

That funny noise was my sigh of relief. I was beginning to get nervous about those books in the mail.

Comments. I want comments. Publishing Sorcerer and Sword represents the achievement of a personal goal I have cherished since I discovered role-playing in 1977 or so.

Best,
Ron

It's not here. The virtuous are patient.

Paul

I haven't seen it yet. (And I designed the dang cover.)

Speaking of that, what do people honestly think about that color on the cover? I had a nice dark, bloody red, and then had to make it a CMYK image (printer-speak for ass-ugly), and it turned out a color that at least I didn't like as much. I tweaked it a lot, but in the end, I wasn't really satisfied. (Soul does not suffer from this problem. I got a really rich dark blue for it.)

Clinton,

The cover color is subdued, but dark enough that the title doesn't pop as it should. I wondered about that. From a short distance you have to look twice to read it. Not unpleasant, not particularly eye-catching. Bummer about the printing problem. Did you do a monitor test before you settled on your color settings? It's something that's caused major headaches for the art directors I've worked with on print jobs. Glad to hear you've beaten it with Soul.

Ron,

As usual, the content is excellent. I loved the new "Clicking Sands" material and chuckled at the inspiration for it.

My only quibble is that the maps seemed a bit less polished than I'd expected. While I know from previous discussion here what you were aiming for, they really seemed superfluous, not adding anything to your settings, and even (in my opinion) detracting a bit from the sense of high quality the artwork and writing conveyed. I don't wish to disparage the efforts of the mapmakers, but the maps just weren't visually dynamic and I don't think they do your settings justice in terms of stimulating the imagination or offering much in the way of utility. Pointing to the latter, the Black Forest map in particular was so dense with "forest" that if players wanted to write place names or notes on it, they'd have to tape pieces of paper over it to do so. Moreover, the cut and paste lines on the forest pattern were painfully obvious, giving a somewhat gridded look to the final product. I dwell on the maps only because (1) everything else was so damn excellent, and (2) like it or not, maps are enough of a stock feature in fantasy games. They ought to be high quality. Please note that I am not referring to the lack of names. The "Orkworld" open-ended functionality was and is a cool idea. I'm speaking purely to graphical quality and aesthetic appeal, but then I'm a map snob.

Overall, Sword is probably the most exciting RPG work I've read in the last -- well, ever. I thought so when I read the PDF, and it's even better now. It makes me want to drop everything else and put a good blood and guts sword and sorcery game together right NOW. Fortunately, I'm trying to do just that with the X-Games group. Unfortunately, it looks like that'll be in 2002, given the holiday schedule meltdown. I'll have to sate my desires by going out and grabbing some Wagner and Samuelson and then taking a stab at a piece of my own.

Congratulations, Ron. You've had me pulling out all my old Lieber books from the attic already. Now you're putting a hole in my wallet from acquisition of used books.

By the way, I recommend taking a look at J. Gregory Keyes's short stories featuring his barbarian hero Fool Wolf. The Opal of Nar and a few others have appeared in Dragon magazine this last year. I'll buy the mags just for his stories, which are set in his Waterborn/Blackgod world. In fact, Fool Wolf may be especially pertinent to Sorcerer fans, since he harbors a demon goddess in his body. A great deal of the dramatic tension involves his inner conflict with her. Check it out.

Best,

Blake

[ This Message was edited by: Blake Hutchins on 2001-12-11 21:02 ]

I'm still waiting for mine [whimper!] I need the ego-stroking seeing my art on the cover is gonna give me! And some of the interiors! Damnit, I'm a junkie, leave me alone!

-Raven

Hi Blake,

The maps are also going up at the website, in color, and they may be more useful/pleasing to you in that form. I agree with you that quality is pretty important for maps, but they really are damned difficult. 'Sword hit an ugly time constraint as well, which 'Soul did not.

I was pleased and even amazed by Keyes' Waterborn & Blackgod books. They were padded, sure, but nowhere near as badly as most (cough) fantasy these days, and I swear to God they read like a classic, beautiful rendition of Gloranthan adventure.

You've definitely whetted my interested in the Fool Wolf stories, and I hope those are slated for collection some time. Gardner F. Fox's sorcerer-warrior character, Kothar, had a demon-goddess patron/sidekick who gave him a nice combination of rescues and headaches. I'll be interested to compare the characters.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Clinton, Raven - chill, guys. The books are on their way.

First, let me second the recommendation of the Fool Wolf stories. Of all the fiction in Dragon in the past few years, Keyes' FW stories have been the ones that have caught and held my attention and interest.

P.S. Clinton, Raven - chill, guys. The books are on their way.

Ron,

I understand maps are tricky. Look forward to seeing the ones up on the site.

Waterborn and Blackgod were pretty amazing, though I wanted to strangle Perkar at times, even though I liked him. Talk about callow youth and putting the wrong foot forward!

Writing style has changed a lot since the pulp days. There are a lot more third person internal points of view being written now -- in fact, I'd say it's the norm. Hence the expression of the hero's internal dialogue, including doubts, guilt, and fears. The pulp sword and sorcery writers used a more distanced technique. You're shown Conan feeling awe or even fear, but you don't get the internal monologue where he's telling himself, "Fuck! ANOTHER big snake! I don't know if I can blah blah blah..." I wonder whether this approach (third person internal voice) contributes to a watered-down feeling with much modern fantasy.

And yeah, Fool Wolf is cool. Refreshingly amoral in pursuit of his goals.

Best,

Blake

Hi Blake,

I shall express a personal opinion regarding your phrase,

"I wonder whether this approach (third person internal voice) contributes to a watered-down feeling with much modern fantasy."

Huck! Huck! Huuuccckkkkk! PTOOEY!! Ptoo, ptoo.

That is not directed at your point, which I agree with (and don't wonder about at all). It's directed at the phenomenon you're describing. It's just a little more ... glottal than your polite statement.

Best,
Ron

Heh. C'mon, Ron. Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

With Perkar the angst thing it worked for me. He wouldn't have been the same had he not sniveled and moaned through the two books. He really was your doofus right off the farm, and it's a trope I found damn amusing in light of the warring gods epic he was involved in.

Fool Wolf, on the other hand, is clearly modeled after the trickster-warrior archetype, with what I assume is an animistic take on ye olde werewolf curse.

Now if you want me to hurl, mention Lin Carter. *urrggh-splat* Oy.

BTW, David Bischoff is a friend of mine. He's flattered to be mentioned in your Sorcerer bibliography.

Queasily yours after the Lin Carter thing,

Blake

I wonder whether this approach (third person internal voice) contributes to a watered-down feeling with much modern fantasy.

What's wrong with third person internal voice? Does this pose a problem ONLY for fantasy or is it true for all "genres" And what about first person? Isn't that ALL internal voice?

Sorry that little exchange just grabbed my interest. Feel free to email me privately if you think that's more appropriate.

Jesse

Nothing's wrong with it. I use it all the time in my own writing. However, in line with the Sword and Sorcery tropes we're dealing with, I suggest a steady internal monologue that conveys moment-to-moment self-doubt and moral questioning conflicts with the heroic nature of the genre. In other settings with other heroes, it's absolutely fine. It formed the center of the Thomas Covenant Chronicles, for example, as well as Richard Monaco's Grail War books. However, I wonder whether a lot of modern fantasy overuses the technique to dilute their characters. The Wheel of Time and the Shannara books come to mind as noteworthy examples of this perspective producing a saccharine flavor. There are few unapologetic heroes in the more recent LotR-derivative works, and I think that's what Ron drives at with respect to the sword-and-sorcery subgenre of fantasy. It's not like guilt can't be used. Lord knows Elric carried a boatload of it, but the perspective didn't go deeply into his head to use his mental voice to convey that guilt. Moorcock showed more than told.

And Raven's right -- with Lovecraft it's a necessary approach, since you're dealing most often with the disintegration of the psyche. Much more interesting to be in the person's head for that ride.

Best,

Blake

First person voice is also fine, though it's tricky. You automatically know the first person narrator will survive the story, since the conceit is that he or she is telling the story to someone else and therefore must survive to do so. At the same time, it's extremely effective at conveying viewpoint and the inner landscape, as the narrator frequently engages in commentary on people, places, and situations encountered in the course of the tale. The first Amber series offers a great example, and the Gandalara cycle does a good job, too. In pulp literature you see this in stuff like the first John Carter of Mars books as well as Raymond Chandler's Marlowe novels. As a literary technique, it's certainly found its place in the classics -- viz. Moby Dick. I love writing in first person, but you don't really worry about the main protagonist's survival -- even though there can be other significant stakes for the reader to worry about.

Best,

Blake

Got it! More later...once I've had a chance to read it.

Paul

I GOT IT I GOT IT I GOT IT I GOT IT!

*ahem* Sorry. All this talk about it got me all psyched. Too bad I'm going out of town tomorrow--I won't really have time to give it a fair reading until next week.

On the somewhat off topic "internal monologue" thread:

I don't think it's the monologue itself so much as the stereotyped and shallow stuff it's used to express. How much self-doubt and teen angst can a reader be expected to stand (ed. note: R. Jordan is still selling, right?)?

I would expect that if someone were to write a story based on a S&S game, the monologue would be quite useful in conveyng the moral dimensions of Humanity.

Lon

Yep, that's a better way of putting it. It's not the tool, but the way it's used. I did note from my own reading of the source literature Ron cites that the internal voice was rarely present in those stories, hence my speculation about technique.

And yeah, this has been pretty off-topic. My apologies.

Best,

Blake

FWIW on Internal Dialog: A third person limited perspective is a requirement for novelizations (Star Trek books and the like); it is right there in guidelines.

-- Eric, waiting patiently for his copy of S&S

I got it! I got it! I got it! Yay! Cheer-cheer!
There it was, in the mailbox! I tore open the wrapping! Whoo!

Ok, some quick "I just glanced through it" comments:

My images are *much darker than they should be, sorry; and both internals have an odd grayish cast to them (particularly noticeable on the supposed-to-be white areas). Not sure how that came about. Anyone else see that, or is it just my copy?

Urg...the shadow demon pic. really needs a border [fret, fret]

Clinton's right about the color of the cover (damn CMYK! It's the bane of my existance, too; dulls everything. Ask the printer about adding a dye-color next time to handle it (though that would increase the cost)). OTOH, it looks almost like a very dark bronze, a bloody metallic color, or thick, dried blood.

The maps...
Hrm, I agree, could be better. They're just too...Campaign Cartography-looking IMO. I think they need that brushed, human touch -- that 'penned by hand, by an old world explorer' kinda look.

Related: I can't seem to download the color versions from the site; only about a quarter of them appear on the screen then it says they're done (I tried refreshing and clearing the cache). Help!

Les Evan's work, as usual, is awesome, and makes the book feel so much more "authentic," true to the roots it is explaining. Brings me right back to REH's Conan and Weird Tales.

Ron's writing is in fine form, especially the expanded material on running an S&S or fantasy game (skimming it right now, have to absorb it later). I'm thoroughly impressed, and I see more changes a-comin' to my 3E game.

Ok, more later, once I get a chance to peruse it.
(YAY! It came!)

I got it, too!
(Which means that Sorcerer & Sword already made it overseas to the game shops of the old world!)

BTW I also spotted Sorcerer copies at one or two booths at the last Essen Game Show, so it doesn't seem to be unknown over here. How does it sell in Europe?

Clinton: Too bad that that color cover was messed up. The brownish look isn't all that eye-catching. But you'll fix that with the next book... Or we will stone you at next GenCon. With giant clams! =)

Jürgen Mayer

Hi Jurgen,

Apparently Sorcerer has excellent international sales, and a lot of stores across Europe are carrying it. This is great, of course.

What matters now is the re-ordering issue; that is, if copies of the game sell from a particular store, does it get ordered again to fill in the shelf.

Best,
Ron

All I know is that the books in my FLGS' stock are still from the first order. Compared to other small-press games like Little Fears or The Last Exodus it seems to sell a little slower, but I can't imagine what the reason is. I'll keep you updated.

Jürgen Mayer

Jurgen,

I could suggest one reason - shallow buyer practices. I'm not naysaying Little Fears or The Last Exodus, but on the surface, their content certainly seems more provocative. This is most likely a case of Color selling copies, and I suspect Sorcerer would sell at least a little better if paired up with Sorcerer & Sword. Lets hope gamers can find both in stores so they can make that decision.

- Moose

[ This Message was edited by: hardcoremoose on 2002-01-03 23:35 ]

Ron,

I basically gave it a quick read, and I think it looks great. I'll give some more in depth comments on it when I get to read it a little closer. I plan on running a game of it within the next month.

I just had a chance to play in my first game of Sorcerer a couple nights ago, and I had a lot of fun with that too. It was funny, because like Moose said that a lot of people overlook Sorcerer, I had a few friends who didn't want to play at all. After about two hours of hearing how much fun we were having that had to sit down and make a character.

Trav