I KNOW I KNOW

TROS IS NOT LOTR!!!

But please help me, my players (and me), wanna have LOTR orcs instead of Gols (not that we don't like them :D).

STATS?? some one help me, in the movie some of the LOTR orcs seem to be a bit smaller then humans, but they should be as strong right?

I could ofcourse do something my self. but i really want you oppinion first.

I think that Uruk-hai can be represented with the current Gol stats. They're supposed to be elite right? If you want your players to mow through them in cinematic fashion just lower some of their physcial stats and weapon proficiencies.

For the other various strands of orcs/goblins you can just work backward from the Gol. Perhaps reducing their CP when fighting in daylight or giving them the Small flaw will help to distinguish them.

You can also distinguish them by the way they fight and the weapons they use. Moria Orcs (goblins) favor spears, short swords and short bows. They like to wear as much armor as possible and use shields to make up for their low toughness. They fight very defensively hoping to wear down their opponents with small cuts and stabs. Whenever possbile they attempt to overwhelm an enemy with sheer numbers.

Regular orcs favor mass weapons and/or two handed weapons. They rush into battle heedless of their safety and trusting to their high toughness and health to see them through a fight. They wear whatever armor is available (usually leather with some chain and a helmet) but almost always forgo a shield. They use maneuvers like beat, bind and strike, and double strike whenever possible.

Uruk-hai are the elite of the armies of Sauron. They are almost always encased in the heaviest of armors and have a highly disciplined fighting style. Their high endurance means they can last longer before wearing out in a fight and their high strength means that their blows are almost always crippling. If they are using a shield they favor longswords, scimitars or handaxes. Other common weapons include morningstars, pikes, crossbows, and doppelhanders.

Any of this help? As soon as school work dies down I was planning on submitting some monster write ups for the board to critique. They're mostly demon type monsters, but there are others as well.

-Jim

Are orcs as strong as normal men, now im talking Strength in TROS?!?

They seem smaller then humans....

...an opinion:

According to Tolkein, orcs were the dark enemy's creation done to mimic elves...kindof an evil counter part. Since Morgoth did it all on his own without the benefits added by the other Valar, they were a heavily flawed and considered to be a very cheap copy indeed. So they should be basically less than elves but have some of their qualities. They live practically forever unless killed in combat...but due to lifestyle they rarely live more than a couple of dozen years at best. Less in strength, way less in intelligence, etc,....

Now the Uruk Hai were Saruman's perversion of orcs. While they never really came right out and said so, he basically crossbred men and orcs (vastly unlike the mud creations in the movie) and created a stronger, smarter "half-orc" that wasn't bothered by daylight.

So long story short, probably average human intelligence at best, better average endurance than human, better average strength than men. Probably not immortal like the pure orcs, but then again when did a normal orc ever live to be 30 anyhow due to their warlike culture and policy of "promotion by murdering one's supperior".

If you're really serious about running that world, I'd suggest getting the books and reading them if you haven't done so already...including the very painful Silmarillion (which has all the historical details starting literally before the creation of the world). If you try to base your campaign on the movie, it possibly will fall apart before long. Don't get me wrong, the movies were wonderful...but they only moderately followed the books (in some places the movies were very accurate, in others they left out tons of critical details...had to for time, in yet others they specifically CONTRADICTED both character descriptions and events).
Again, not making detrimental statements about the movies. Considering the scope and time involved, etc,...they were wonderfully done. But if I wanted consistancy to my game I'd go for the actual history the author intended. Tolkein mapped out his world's history in detail for a couple of years prior to writing word one of his stories because he wanted a rock solid foundation to his story that was consistant and that would add flavor to the stories. Most of those notes (which I've been told he never intended to publish) his son gathered up after his death and compiled into the Silmarillion. Unfortunately they weren't compiled with quite as much skill as the father had, so it's a little tougher to read through that one.

Appologies to anyone I've offended here ahead of time, and also for anything I've mis-stated. Tolkein is a hot topic with some people, and they tend to take things very personal when something doesn't agree with their views on the topic. Complicating this is years and years of stories and rumors about where things came from, etc,....that may have no basis in reality at all...so some of what I said above MAY NOT be absolutely accurate.

Personally I did run a Rolemaster campaign in Middle Earth for about 5 years, using the actual maps provided by Rolemaster supplements (many of which ALSO contradicted the books in their descriptions, but I think the maps were not far off), and I found myself constantly referring back to the Silmarillion for everything from getting the race history and activities right to determining what history had occurred in various areas to coming up with my own adventures based on anchient peoples, events, and monsters. In the course of doing so, I think I've even found the mystery of where the Balrog came from in Moria....I think Tolkein laid it all out but never actually said what happened, and probably is smirking at us all from his grave to this day that no one has put it together yet.
Nuff said.

Hi,

Hate to chime in with a little piece of anal-retentive Tolkien geekery when I should just be lurking like I normally do but:

The Uruk-Hai are not Sauron's crossbreeds of humans and orcs. This is a frequently confused point. In the books Sauron had cross-bred humans and orcs to create orcs of unusual size and intelligence, some capable of passing as humans and thus acting as spies. The Uruk-Hai were not so much any particular strain of orc but a group of exceptionally well trained and capable orcs conditioned to (amongst other things) fight in daylight. Sort of the equivalent of the orc S.A.S./Navy S.E.A.L.S. or similar. :) At the time of Lord of the Rings some (maybe all, Tolkien was indecisive on this point as on so many others) were in the employ of Sauron. The movies chose to blur over the whole thing.

At least that's what my flatmate's A-Z of Tolkien says... :) Of course, if I'm wrong I'd appreciate being told so.

Bye,

Dave

<chuckle>...knew it would be a matter of seconds before I got replies on such a contraversial topic. You could be right. It's been a while since I've actually been through all that material...but I do recall the books doing some hinting that some type of actual arcane or unthinkable perversion had occurred...which to me sounds like more than just heavy duty training. There's lots of printed material out there that horribly mis-states things about the books...ten thousand leeches trying to make a buck off of a legendarily successful story. The A-Z may be right, but I'd suggest reading through the actual books to make sure. I'd run over and start paging through, but I don't want to clog things up here with a Tolkein debate. So, I acknowledge and humbly bow here to the opinions of others and to the references they value. Thanks for adding in the extra information...it may be right!

bergh-

Going off the stats of Gol found in Of Beasts and Men....

Moria Orc/Goblin
ST: 3 WP: 3 Ref: 4
AG: 5 Wit: 4 Aim: 5
TO: 3(maybe 4 for a chief) MA: 3 KD: 4
EN: 4 Soc: 3 KO: 4
HT: 3 Per: 5 Move: 6
Combat Prof (Sword and Shield, Pole-arm) 3-5, CP 7-9
Armor Worn: Breastplate, Shoulder Cop, leather leggings, medium shield, helm

This makes for a relatively weak opponent that a seasoned warrior could defeat one-one easily, but then again when is someone going to mean just one goblin. Add in some archers and a cave troll or two and mix well.

Mordor Orc
ST: 6 WP: 4 Ref: 3
AG: 4 Wit: 3 Aim: 3
TO: 6 MA: 2 KD: 5
EN: 5 Soc: 2 KO: 8
HT: 4 Per: 3 Move: 7
Combat Prof (Mass Weapon and Shield - add a second weapon to replace a shield for maneuvers like double strike, Pole-arm, Pole-axe, Brawling) 5-10, CP 8-13
Armor Worn: Sleevless Leather jack, Pot helm, if a shield is used it will almost certainly be employed as a weapon

Your average orc is tough and knows how to wield a weapon due to their harsh lifestyle, but isn't particularly bright and doesn't play well with others. Without an enemy to fight they will certainly take to battling themselves. When faced with orcs it's best to fall back orderly under cover of arrows to thin out their ranks before hitting them hard and fast.

(For Orcs and Goblins reverse the Visibility rules found on page 78 of the core book. Total darkness - full CP, fire light - reduce by one, half light - dawn/dusk - reduce by 1/4, full daylight half CP)

Uruk-hai
ST: 6 WP: 5 Ref: 5
AG: 5 Wit: 5 Aim: 4
TO: 6 MA: 3 KD: 5
EN: 7 Soc: 3 KO: 8
HT: 5 Per: 4 Move: 9
Combat Prof (Sword and Shield, Longsword/Greatsword, Pole-arm) 5-10
CP 10-15
Armor Worn: Full harness (when available) or sleeveless chainshirt with leather bracers and leggings. Unless a two handed weapon is used they will be equipped with a medium shield.

Uruk-hai represent the culmination of years of breeding programs and extensive training. They do not suffer in daylight like their lesser kin and they aren't prone to fighting amongst themselves, although they will fight other orcs if given reason to. They are the perfect soldier. An army of Uruk-hai is a force to be reconed with.

For 'berserkers' or shock troops add 1 to AG and HT. They wear little armor although head gear is appropriate and wield greatswords.


These numbers are just off the top of my head.

EDIT: For other 'breeds' of orc you could just work with these numbers. The feral orc trackers that Sam and Frodo encounter in Mordor can use the orc as a base. Lower St to 4, Raise AG and Per to 6, and possibly raise EN to 6 or 7, maybe lower TO. Give them bows and viola!

-Jim

I too have been using Gol as uruk-hai, gol-2 for orcs.

As for running the world with appropriate armor, weapons, etc., you first have to decide if you're duplicating the books or the movie.

If your goal is to duplicate the movie, you may want to try using "The Lord of the Rings Weapons and Warfare" by Chris Smith. The author clearly has studied real armor, which is a relief in books of this type. He describes each layer worn well enough that you can easily figure out the TROS equivalent -- the areas where one group will sacrifice armor area covered in order to preserve agility even correspond with TROS specs on armors' CP and movement penalties (e.g. the elves have a mail shirt w/sleeves, not a full suit).

If you want to duplicate the books, be aware that there are differences -- the most obvious being that the primary armor is mail, not plate. No elfswords that are half longsword half polearm either (BTW I treat them as longswords). A quick reference source is Joe Piela's essay at http://members.aol.com/gijchar/aame.htm
that pulls together the different citations of armor and weapon types from the first through third ages from Tolkein's books.

I hope you find this helpful.

All this LOTR talk is going to make Brian swell with pride today after last nights Oscars...
i'm amazed we haven't received some sort of gloating post as of yet :)

Edge wrote: All this LOTR talk is going to make Brian swell with pride today after last nights Oscars...
i'm amazed we haven't received some sort of gloating post as of yet :)

Why did the movie's orcs look so muscle-bound? They looked like they were bigger than humans. In the books, IIRC, Tolkien is careful to emphasize that men are bigger than even the largest orcs...

My guess would be 2 part:
1. Effect...they needed to be scary on the screen.
2. Lifestyle...considering orcs live in a "biggest, toughest, most murderous and devious one lives" society...they should be fairly muscle bound. In my world (gaming, computer programming, and basic existance) I have no real motivation to be in tip top shape (explaining the Charlie Brown physique). Now if I lived in a world where everyone was trying to bully me around or kill me every hour of every day, I might be a little more motivated to do a push up or two every now and then.

just my opinion...

In the cartoon some of the orcs were as tall as hobbits.. or inbetween a hobbit and a man.. *shrug*

That's some old school stuff right there.. and I do not know if there was a cartoon version of the first two main books.

Methinks this topic is open to interpretation. Mostly it depends on which source of Tolkien's story you base it off of. As the book came straight from him, the cartoon was done through someone else's perspective on his books, and the movies were done through Peter Jackson's interpretation of the books.

-Ingenious

Thanks for alle the post, please continue discussing!

First i wanna tell why i need this info, its becouse my campaign (after wishes from my players), are a crossover between Warhammer world and Middel Earth.

Plus we liked all the different human nations in Wyerth.
so adding Gondor and Rohan to the Warhammer cultures would give a BIG variety of human cultures. PERFECT!

Here are the biggest changes:

1. Goffy-warhammer-Baby-face-orcs replaced by Tolkien(movie)Orcs.
2. Warhammer Chaos are very powered down, the wastes are more cold unexplored wilderness.
3. Mirk wood forest is part of the "Eastern Wilderness" where orcs roam.
4. We wanted an "evil" land in the warhammer world, Morder is great for that
Generaly the world map is to be seen here:
http://www.fflr.dk/tabletop/midgard.jpg


I must agree by studying both the movie and skimming some books and web sites, that a normal orc a not as tall as a human and i will say that ST5 is enough for a standard orc.

Thanks to monkeyWrench for the stats, they are great, but im going to make normal orcs ST5 and 4.

Do Anyone know where ther are a Name Generator for LOTR? who both give First and Sur name, i can remeber i found one 1½ year ago, who could do orc names.

becouse i wanna make an "orc adventure" group, with names and such, just to give the combat encounter some more flesh, i don't wanna have my gamers encouter 6 totaly look-a-like orcs.

For a Tolkien name generator check out www.barrowdowns.com

Give them bows and viola!

<Grin>....party of orcs, eh? Are they keeping Tolkein attitudes? I.E. promotion by murder, constant internal bickering that exploads into deadly fights within the party on a daily basis. If so, you better have a group of players that are pretty good natured and not too attached to their characters because they are going to be doing a lot of character re-rolling methinks. Of course, going with Uruk Hai may be a little less chaotic...it seems like they were a little more interested in following orders and cooperating to achieve the goal they were given.

re-discovered....thanks!

also lots info about orcs on that page....

Malechi wrote: MUSICAL ORCS!!!!!

Some of the orc species issues are confused by the facts that Tolkien didn't do much to try and clear them up, and that later authors, in order to clear this up make some differing claims.

But I'll give you the straight party line from the people who do lots of scholarly reading of Tolkien. First, Uruk-Hai refers to larger orcs bred for war. As such, Saruman's Half-orc Half-Dunlending troops would have been considered Uruk-Hai and are refered to as such at least once. That's not to say that they comprise the Uruk-Hai solely, just that they are a subset. So you have Half-Orc Uruk-Hai, and Full Orc Uruk-Hai.

There's a lot of confustion about the term Goblin, because Tolkien uses it to refer to the orcs of the misty mountains (Globlingate, etc), and Moria earlier, and then starts using the term orc later. But this doesn't really seem to neccessarily be meant to indicate that these species are orcs. Instead it would seem that Tolkien shifted more to Elvish terms the further things got from the Westron speaking Shire, and as such later uses what is probably the Elvish term for goblins, orc. Or, rather, as orcs predate men likely, it's men who have their own term goblin for what the elves originally labeled as orcs (and, indeed it was Melkor who created the orcs from elves to spite them - the movie got this part right).


In any case, these terms were likely meant to refer to all of them as one big group. Indeed, sometimes he refers to the Half-orcs as goblin-men. So here's a place where they seem to be interchangeable. Much of the goblin/orc confusion actually comes from D&D making them two different things.

Now, that's not to say that there weren't a lot of breeds - that's established well on Frodo's crossing of Gorgoroth. It's just that most of them are probably unnammed, and I'm fairly sure that there wasn't much of a pedigree to any of the breeds anyhow. Essentially, you're probably free to make up whatever you want in terms of breeds in general, leaving the term Uruk-Hai for the largest orcs meant for battle. These I think basically are determinable by being in actual units and having the best armor and weapons more than anything else.

As for appearance, the books are vague enough that I think that Jackson's portrayals are "close enough for government work". That orc breeds are probably diverse enough that the range shown probably doesn't go too far outside Tokien that you couldn't use them as canon.

Now, the thing is, this is all Middle Earth related. If you're not playing in Middle Earth, I would wonder why any of it would matter. Heck I'm not sure any of it matters all that much if you're playing in Middle Earth (and I did a lot of that). If you're playing outside ME, the orcs are all yours to do what you want with.

Interestingly, the term orc is an old term in a lot of real world cultures that means something like "monster" or "meat eater" or "demon" or the like. As such, this is why TSR could use it, but had to use halfling instead of hobbit. Hobbit is copywrited, orc is a "previous use" term. The point being that even if Tolkien had never written his stuff, we could still use orc sensibly - he just gave the monster in question a face and a place, and made them into the ultimate cannon fodder.

So, I'm just wondering why all the fact finding? What does it matter "how big" orcs are in Middle Earth? In your world make them as large or small, tough or weak as you like.

Mike