My question re. abilities in DOMINION is at the bottom. Before I can ask it meaningfully, a summary of the DOMINION game is in order.

DOMINION summary

1. Premise

How much are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of glory and for the sake of your deepest desires? How far are you willing to go?

2. Setting

The distant future. Humanity barely escaped destruction at the hands of a race of hyperdimensional beings known as “demons.” The demons were somehow harvesting parts of realspace for energy, and didn’t give a second thought to the effects they were having on the native life forms there.

Humanity was saved by another hyperdimensional being, the “Redeemer,” and by the beings which serve him (“angels”). The Redeemer enabled some humans to escape from the sectors of realspace being destroyed by the demons (an event known as the “Exodus”).

Because of the destruction wrought by the demons, and because of the disorder caused by the sudden Exodus, the old human civilization has been largely destroyed or forgotten. Most of humanity is part of the Dominion, which is in theory the rule of the Redeemer in realspace, actually a feudal military aristocracy (headed by an emperor), with a powerful Church controlling a lot of the intellectual and cultural life.

[Setting-wise, think Dune + “Pendragon in space”.]

3. Characters

There are three basic types ("Classes") of player characters: patricians, clerics, and plebeians. Patricians are “space knights,” professional soldiers who serve feudal lords, and who may be lesser lords themselves (a lord rules an estate of fief, taxing it to support his military apparatus).

Clerics are either members of the orthodox Church or heretics of various sects. A few clerics (mostly ones with no status in the Church hierarchy) can work actual miracles.

Plebeians are “space guildsmen”: engineers, programmers, researchers, and the like. They also include warriors outside the feudal hierarchy (mercenaries), who are often hired by the guilds to do their dirty work (but who must operate outside the law, for the most part).

The group of player characters will either be a patrician group, a clerical group, or a plebeian group. A patrician group can include clerical and plebeian adjuncts, a clerical group can include plebeian adjuncts, and a plebeian group can include clerical adjuncts. No more than 2/3 of the group can be adjuncts from a different Class.

There is a fourth type of character in the setting: serfs. These are bondsmen with a restricted set of rights. Player characters will never be of the serf Class, but they may associate with them.

4. Stats

Characters have three main types of stats, as follows:

a. Passions

What the character cares most about. Each Passion except Honor has an Object (the thing or person which the Passion is directed to). A player distributes 10 points among a starting character’s Passions.

--Fear, Hate, Honor, Love, Loyalty.

b. Sins

Selfishness, in various flavors. An objective measure of how far astray the character has gone from the gospel of the Redeemer. A player distributes 10 points among a starting character’s Sins. A player can lower his starting character’s Sins at the cost of one Passion point per point of Sin removed.

--Gluttony, Greed, Lust, Pride, Wraith.

c. Abilities

(i) Beauty: can affect romantic situations and social prestige (Fame, Status)
(ii) Discernment: notice/remember/analyze
(iii) Fame: glory/reputation/renown
(iv) Past: background/social origin/skills/training; chosen from among a list appropriate to the character's Class
(v) Physique: physical action and exertion
(vi) Poesis: art/creativity; highly valued among patricians, and thus can affect Status and Fame rolls; can also add to other abilities, if the player’s narration lends his character’s actions an artistic/esthetic flourish
(vii) Status: current social class/standing
(viii) Will: cool under pressure; force of personality; aura; persuasion

A player distributes 30 points among a starting character’s Abilities, subject to a couple of restrictions:

-The character’s Status is partially dependent on his Class, as follows:

--Cleric: Status 1-6
--Patrician: Status 4-6
--Plebeian: Status 1-3

-The character’s Fame must be equal to or greater than his Status minus 1.


All stats are measured as a number of dice. The usual ranges for the stats are 1 through 6 (the higher the number, the more the character embodies the stat); 3 is average.

Clergymen who can work miracles have an ability called Spirit. It is their ability to channel the power of the Redeemer. Spirit must be matched against the character’s highest Sin to be used effectively.

NPC “diabolists” have an ability called Lore, as in Sorcerer.

5. Resolution

All resolution involves opposed dice rolls. If two characters oppose each other, the GM decides which stat’s each player should roll. If one character alone is acting, the GM decides how many opposition dice he rolls. The side with the highest number rolled gets its way, as in Sorcerer.

Successes can carry over from previous to subsequent rolls, as in Sorcerer. Successes from Passion rolls can add to just about every sort of Ability, depending on the circumstances. Successes from Glory rolls (usually one character’s Glory vs. another character’s Glory) are helpful in getting one’s way in social interactions.

The GM can call for Temptation rolls. The GM decides which Sin to test, and how strong the Temptation is. The stronger the Temptation, the fewer the opposition dice. Or, the Sin may be opposed by another of the character's stats (usually a Passion). If the Sin wins, the character acts in accordance with the Sin, regardless of what the player wants.

6. Rewards

The main reward mechanism is gradual increase in Abilities and Passions.

The Sins are a “punishment” mechanism in that they take control away from the player, and can be exploited by the GM (especially in those moments when the character’s Passions are at stake). Yet, the Sins are often increased by going “over the edge” in adhering to one’s Passions, or in going for more Fame or Status. Excess in pursuing Passions and Abilities thus tends to lead to a Fall.

My Question

I feel really uncertain about the Abilities right now. How many and which one’s do I really need? My sense is I may be suffering from Abilities glut, but I’m not sure what to get rid of, if anything.

Also, I welcome feedback re. whether you think the whole thing hangs together.

Regards,

Rexfelis

I don't think you need to crucially distinguish between Fame and Status...pick one.

I also think you can do some neat things with high levels of Discernment, allowing it to be used to judge other characters' Sins and the like.

Shreyas Sampat wrote: I don't think you need to crucially distinguish between Fame and Status...pick one.

I also think you can do some neat things with high levels of Discernment, allowing it to be used to judge other characters' Sins and the like.

Rexfelis wrote: I feel really uncertain about the Abilities right now. How many and which one’s do I really need? My sense is I may be suffering from Abilities glut, but I’m not sure what to get rid of, if anything.

coxcomb wrote: "Abilities glut" is a loaded phrase. If those abilities serve your design goals, then they are fine. I have played games with dozens of stats and games with only a couple of stats. None of them was made or broken by the number of stats, but by the way the stats were used.

Sorry for the rant. I feel better now.

All that being said, it is unclear to me how well abilities and passions/sins interact. Your description of resolution seems to slant in favor of passions. Maybe you should focus in on that part of the system and let some of the other stuff fade to the background? Hard to say without further clarification of intent.

I know this is not encessarily regarding your question (which i will get to), but what interaction, if any, do Sins have with the game?

I understand I can use beauty for beautiful situations... makes sense. But, can I use greed when actions would indicate I am acting in a manner befitting avarice? In effect, what I am asking is: if my sins go up as I stray from the path... so? What is the consequence and what is the benefit? For instance, y'know, that "lure of the Dark Side" (which, by-the-bye, d20 Star Wars does nearly NOTHING to represent in their mechanics... wussies). If I can augment actions with my sins as they come into play, well, now I have a moral dilemma. On the other hand, if sins are just some odd thermometer of evil for my character, honestly, then it becomes pointless.

But, to your question:

I'd make beauty more than an effective "comeliness" score. Change it to "Grace" and have it be something that includes a "presence" less than an attractiveness. Phil Gordon demands attention at a poker table, but he ain't no beauty. Make grace be that almost subliminal pull some people have, or a aura of "something". That way, it becomes a useful stat (comeliness and charisma always annoy me). Have it be something that can be used in more than just social interactions as a type of "intervention" techinque.

Drop Physique. You have Past, Will, Poesis... all of these can be used to substitute for the standard (and frankly, tired) Strength/Dexterity. Hell, define your traits well enough, and I could see using Fame, Grace, Will, Poesis, or Past to resolve "action encounters".

I agree with Shreyas, Status and Fame is redundant.

Y'know, on second thought, and I realize this may require reworking, but drop the whole slew of abilities. Instead, just have Passions and Sins. Screw the rest. Seriously. You can have some seriously good interaction between "good" and "evil" through having a character constantly forced to decide between the righteous and the damned.

It is always so odd to me to see someone develop a kick-ass premise and setting, then have this "specials" system for resolving magic/kewl flash, but then have this completely worn-out "it's-like-every-other-game-with-different-adjectives" style attribute/skills system. Fuck the attributes/skills bit and have your special system run the whole shebang. Whole hog, baby.

Dav

Dav wrote: I know this is not encessarily regarding your question (which i will get to), but what interaction, if any, do Sins have with the game?

I understand I can use beauty for beautiful situations... makes sense. But, can I use greed when actions would indicate I am acting in a manner befitting avarice? In effect, what I am asking is: if my sins go up as I stray from the path... so? What is the consequence and what is the benefit? For instance, y'know, that "lure of the Dark Side" (which, by-the-bye, d20 Star Wars does nearly NOTHING to represent in their mechanics... wussies). If I can augment actions with my sins as they come into play, well, now I have a moral dilemma. On the other hand, if sins are just some odd thermometer of evil for my character, honestly, then it becomes pointless.

But, to your question:

I'd make beauty more than an effective "comeliness" score. Change it to "Grace" and have it be something that includes a "presence" less than an attractiveness. Phil Gordon demands attention at a poker table, but he ain't no beauty. Make grace be that almost subliminal pull some people have, or a aura of "something". That way, it becomes a useful stat (comeliness and charisma always annoy me). Have it be something that can be used in more than just social interactions as a type of "intervention" techinque.

Drop Physique. You have Past, Will, Poesis... all of these can be used to substitute for the standard (and frankly, tired) Strength/Dexterity. Hell, define your traits well enough, and I could see using Fame, Grace, Will, Poesis, or Past to resolve "action encounters".

I agree with Shreyas, Status and Fame is redundant.

Y'know, on second thought, and I realize this may require reworking, but drop the whole slew of abilities. Instead, just have Passions and Sins. Screw the rest. Seriously. You can have some seriously good interaction between "good" and "evil" through having a character constantly forced to decide between the righteous and the damned.

It is always so odd to me to see someone develop a kick-ass premise and setting, then have this "specials" system for resolving magic/kewl flash, but then have this completely worn-out "it's-like-every-other-game-with-different-adjectives" style attribute/skills system. Fuck the attributes/skills bit and have your special system run the whole shebang. Whole hog, baby.

You mentioned in your last post that sins, as they increase, take control away from a player. I would advise you specifically not to do that, except in extreme circumstances. The reason for this is simple: trust. Either you are designer that trusts that your playerbase is smart and savvy enough to understand your intent as a designer, and is willing to work within your framework... or, you do not trust your playerbase, and have a lot of "handholding" in your system.

The problem with the latter method comes into play with experienced players... and honestly, for small press or indie games, a large majority of your playerbase will be experienced players looking for something that isn't being delivered by the mainstream at the moment.

Therefore, I would advise you not to take control away from a player as sin increases. Also, a high Sin should not make it more difficult to turn away from temptation... it should make it easier. The analogy is thus: you are a virgin, you've messed around a bit with people, but never had the experience of sex. The opportunity is presented to you to have sex. Now, you are someone who has had sex hundreds and thousands of times, and you are presented with the opportunity for sex. Doesn't seem as great, now, does it?

Also, if Sin slowly erodes your ability to play a character, then what you are essentially saying is that a good character can be played, but evil cannot be experienced through your game. In effect, you are removing moral dilemma from your game. The reasoning for this is due to the fact that, if I "go evil", it is effectively the same as death, or becoming an NPC, then it has little meaning to me over and above that fact... and, in essence, I am being railroaded toward one side of the equation, effectively eliminating free will within your game. If all I can do to remain an effective character is play within a small spectrum of your good-to-evil axis, then why bother having the rest of the axis? If, however, you are looking for someone to experience moral choices within your game, you have to make both good AND evil equally (or nearly so) attractive and successful. If evil always loses, the question naturally follows: why be evil?

I would have each Sin have a mirrored Passion. During character creation, the character chooses which side is the dominant focus, and probably a physical/emotional trigger for that focus (thus, you could have Avarice (Sin) linked to Charity (Passion)... the total between Passion and Sin must always equal 10. This character has a dominance for Avarice (meaning that Avarice is what he uses as a trait for resolving conflict, and Charity is what is used as a resistance by the GM) and it is linked to the character's Wife. Thus, the character thinks of himself as the perfect husband, always doting and buying things for the wife, but, in reality, he is a controlling jealous beast. It is only evident on the outside when his love is threatened... possibly by a rival lover, or possibly when he, himself, is confronted with an object of lust. In effect, it could manifest as a rage stimulus, or simply a sociopathic detachment, where he has some "point-system" in his head for determining fairness and affection. When the character voluntarily fails an Avarice roll regarding his Wife, the balance may have the potential for change (see Sorcerer's development mechanic... you could, in effect, have a "kicker" for each Sin-Passion axis)). Anyway, if you are looking for a good vs. evil in a pseudo-catholic sense, you need to bring something like this into play. But, if what you want is a Space Opera set against a religio-political setting, then hell, just use d20.

Dav

Wow--thanks for all the ideas, Dav.

Dav wrote: You mentioned in your last post that sins, as they increase, take control away from a player. I would advise you specifically not to do that, except in extreme circumstances. The reason for this is simple: trust.

Also, a high Sin should not make it more difficult to turn away from temptation... it should make it easier.

Also, if Sin slowly erodes your ability to play a character, then what you are essentially saying is that a good character can be played, but evil cannot be experienced through your game. In effect, you are removing moral dilemma from your game.

I would have each Sin have a mirrored Passion. During character creation, the character chooses which side is the dominant focus, and probably a physical/emotional trigger for that focus (thus, you could have Avarice (Sin) linked to Charity (Passion)... the total between Passion and Sin must always equal 10.

Anyway, if you are looking for a good vs. evil in a pseudo-catholic sense, you need to bring something like this into play. But, if what you want is a Space Opera set against a religio-political setting, then hell, just use d20.

I'm a little clearer now on the types of dramatic situations that will be focused on in the game. Basically, the game is going to involve a lot of combat, bloody combat. Maybe at least 50% of the scenes will involve fights. At least 25% of the scenes will involve diplomatic intrigue or diplomatic wrangling. The dramatic situations of the game involve conflicts between various organizations: noble houses, guilds, gangs, sects, orders, and so on. This action-adventure and political intrigue will be the stage upon which the Passions play themselves out, like in a good samurai movie or Shakespearean historical play.

Still, while a lot of the scenes will involve physical and social conflict, I'm not sure that I need to go too far in the direction of simulating this in gory detail. There needs to be just enough detail to evoke the feeling of the conflict.

In addition to focusing the game on scenes of combat and intrigue, I have decided to limit the player characters to the patrician social class. Or, at least, all of the player characters will be servants of a noble house, even if some of them might be clerical or plebeian adjuncts. Perhaps I could explore play using clerical or plebeian groups later, or perhaps that's just not the focus of the game (as in Pendragon, which at least initially was focused on playing knights).

One further issue to address: why is this a sci-fi game, and not a historical game? The first reason is just that the sci-fi color gives me the right kind of emotional buzz. In other words, it's just a Color issue. The second reason is that it might allow me to address certain premises that a historical game couldn't. This might be a moot point, because the game might not support some of the premises I'm thinking of. But, I'm interested in issues regarding the rights (or lack thereof) of sentient AI computers and robots (to name just one example). In the setting these would all be slaves with no rights whatsoever. I could get a lot of mileage out of this (gladiatorial combat between sentient AI bioshell combatants, fully-sentietnt sex slaves, etc.), but I'd have to be careful not to dilute the focus of the game (=conflicts between groups/organizations, and the individuals who get caught up within them--which is the principal stage or setting in which the premises are worked out).

Rexfelis

Rexfelis wrote: One further issue to address: why is this a sci-fi game, and not a historical game?

Maybe I should declare the thread closed, given that I'm re-working the concept of the game. The new game will have the same premise, and will share a few of the setting tropes: PCs as warriors, nobles, or other "important" people in a society where many/most power relationships are between persons (rather than between relatively impersonal organizations, as in a modern democracy); the existence of a socially disapproved magic, called black magic, sorcery, or the like, which is considered dishonorable or sinful to resort to, but which is nevertheless occasionally used by the desperate [this could also be a forbidden technology]; the existence of a socially approved "white magic," which is usually even rarer than black magic, and which is viewed as holy or awe-inspiring by most in the society [this could include miracles performed by a holy man, the runes engraved by a wise man/wicce, or even the potions and trances of a tribal shaman]. Both types of magic will feature prominently in the society's religious beliefs, and this will be taken advantage of to help generate interesting situations for the PCs. However, magic is not the focus of the game, rather a prominent part of the scenery/setting (a source of plot devices).

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Rexfelis

Rexfelis,

My apologies; I just didn't get a chance to get in there within the 4 days of the thread. A quick note on sins and agency.

I like the idea that Sin deprives players of agency. You just need to counterbalance this with raw power. If you think about the Force in Star Wars, it's pretty obvious that on a raw power level the Dark Side wins. So put your players/characters in situations where they need raw power, and watch 'em say, "Hey, I can give it up any time I want to." Then make it difficult and painful to back up, essentially requiring them deliberately to down-level (in a D&D sense of level) their characters.

Suppose I have a very high Lust, and have never had sex. Okay, so I'm tempted pretty strongly, and might consider it if it just because it still seems really exciting and new. If I have had a lot of sex, however, and for some reason this makes me extra-tempting to other people with a high Lust (i.e. I know how to seem sexy), then the temptation is all the stronger: I can pick my targets, and get what I want, much more easily. Remember: Lust isn't just about wanting sex, if we're talking sin. Seriously bad Lust has to do with using sex, or using others to get sex, or whatever.

Thus a high Sin score provides power and temptation, and also tempts everyone else with the same Sin. If I'm greedy, maybe it encourages other people around me to think about their wallets too. And so on.

Chris Lehrich

clehrich wrote: I like the idea that Sin deprives players of agency. You just need to counterbalance this with raw power. If you think about the Force in Star Wars, it's pretty obvious that on a raw power level the Dark Side wins.

If I have had a lot of sex, however, and for some reason this makes me extra-tempting to other people with a high Lust (i.e. I know how to seem sexy), then the temptation is all the stronger: I can pick my targets, and get what I want, much more easily. . . . Thus a high Sin score provides power and temptation, and also tempts everyone else with the same Sin. If I'm greedy, maybe it encourages other people around me to think about their wallets too. And so on.