Greetings.

I'm looking for an RPG that has inexhaustible magic. By this I mean a system where you can cast spells all day long without limitations or anything becoming depleted. So many systems place restrictions on magic users (probably as an issue of balance) like; ageing of the mage, mana depletion, one spell per day etc…

I haven’t read a lot of fantasy but this is not usually how magic is presented in the stuff I have read. I don’t wish to start a discussion on how various magic works as there are plenty of good web sites for that. All I want to know is: Is there an RPG where the magic users can use inexhaustible magic with it not having any depleting effects?

Thankyou.

Well... This is somewhat vague. There are several systems, IIRC, where very low power magic can be done limitlessly. In Nobilis, you can perform miracles for free up to a certain level, depending on your ability. In The Pool and oCtane there are no specific magic mechanics, just narrative control, so I guess you could do magic without drain in those systems.

What power level of magic are you talking about? Standard fantasy fair, ie fireballs, magic missiles; more low key; or high level, reality twisting craziness?

BTW, I can't really think of a fantasy book where Magic is completely "free". Gandalf uses it incredibly sparingly for this to be the case in Tolkien, Elric is greatly drained whenever he does it, using the One Power in the WoT is definately taxing...

As for power level I am refering to the very typical standard fantasy fair. For any level of power from very low, like a small fireball, to extremely powerful, like destroying a mountain. The level isn't important - just the fact that it is not draining. And I do mean typical fantasy systems so I am avoiding games like The Pool.

Gandalf does use magic sparingly but why? Doesn't it just tire him a bit in the same way as wielding an axe about would? There aren't too many systems that include penalizing a fighter character every time he wields his axe.

I don't mind characters spending hard earned points on acquiring magic, but once it is gained, no matter what the level (ruling out Nobilis I think), it doesn't have any adverse affects on the user whatsoever.

Any clues?

I think you started this thread in the wrong forum, but anyway...
Isnt power level a limitation?
Ars Magica might be the closest thing, there are limitations, namely fatigue, tied to ability and power level. However there arent any of those clumsy limitations from the infancy of roleplaying.
Oh, and everyone involved in physical combat checks for fatigue after every round, but I havent actually seen this rule played as written, as people would start dropping unconscious after a minute or two of combat.

For future reference, "looking for a system" threads seem to belong in the RPG Theory forum. That's where the other two recent threads of this form are, anyways.

Bluve Oak, there are a multitude of games that handle magic in a non-depleting manner (or, at the least, not depleting contrastive to other behaviors. (Incidentally, I don't think that it's important to this thread to discuss magic in the source material; we're talking about meeting your play goals, not duplicating some source.)

Nobilis, as Demada cites, doesn't distinguish Domain miracles (those that look "magical" from, say, the standpoint of an Amber character) from miraculous actions of the other three stats; it isn't handled contrastively. (I think that the Nobilis system is a very strong frame for lower-powered games as well, even though the default setting for the game is "conceptual demigods".)

If you're looking for a "typical fantasy system", by which I read "similar to the model set by D&D and its cohorts", you may be in for a long, hard search. Historically, these systems have held magic to be a privileged tool capable of doing many things that mundane action cannot, and so they put it under a very tight leash. I can't come up with one off the top of my head which doesn't do this, though examples may exist.

I do have one recommendation: even though the HeroQuest system is rather atypical, it doesn't put magic on this "special resource" pedestal, and I think you would get some benefit from taking a look at it. You may also want to examine Donjon, which, again, is rather atypical, but at least makes a superficial effort to look like D&D.

(Cross-posted with Ole.)

Feng Shui is not a Fantasy RPG, but might fit your bill nonetheless as its various timelines (or 'junctures') also cover medieval fantasy of a sort.

IIRC, magic-users have a skill called Sorcery, which functions like other combat skills, such as Martial Arts, e.g. the more people you are trying to kill simultaneously, the more difficult it is.

Contrary to Martial Arts, Guns etc., a fumble will result in some backlash damage, though.

But it is inexhaustable.

Regards,

Hal

* Heroquest
* Donjon
* Feng Shui
* Ars Magica (free)

Thanks for the tips. Any more freebies?!?

It's funny that no one has mentioned Sorcerer. You're not exactly casting spells, but otherwise, your demonic effects don't produce the kind of drain you're talking about.

I would love to read a short description of how you envision play going in such a game. What exactly would limit the rampant destruction of mountains, for instance?

Chris

But... Demons are limited in using their powers by their Stamina attribute, so while the sorcery is effectively unlimited, the "powers" gained from it through demons aren't.

Now Trollbabe magic can be thrown about all day without any ill-effects, as far as I'm aware.

MAGE: The Ascension is the first game that comes to my mind. Though not fantasy by design it could definetly be played that way. MAGE has plenty of source books that have faeries, trolls, griffons and the like. Mage: The Sorcerers Crusade is basicly light fantasy and if I recall omits paradox.

,Matt Gwinn

The game Machineguns & Magic has a system which allows the spellcaster to keep casting spells until failing a casting roll.

Paul

Hero and systems inspired by its power building method don't put limits on magic unless you want. I don't know Hero, so I'll use another example. Big Eyes Small Mouth and Silver Age Sentinels both use a simplified version of powers. These games treat super powers and magic the same way. A power can have a limitation "costs energy to use" that saves some points, but nothing about the rules requires the limitation.

John

And, for GURPS, S John Ross' Unlimited Mana System. It carries with it limitations in the form of higher risk of transdimensional disaster... but doesn't ration out the power. Nicely restores some sort of flavour to a particularly mechanistic magic system.

I would love to read a short description of how you envision play going in such a game. What exactly would limit the rampant destruction of mountains, for instance?

In this case: the rampant destruction of mountains, I would say why not? if it has a purpose for a wise, intelligent sorcerer.

Bluve Oak wrote: What exactly would limit the rampant destruction of mountains, for instance? Common sense! :-)

No seriously, this is really my point, I was envisioning a tactical, thoughtful approach to magic - particularily battle magic. So that play wasn't just a case of "use your most powerful spell until your mana runs out" type o' thang. I was thinking of the right type of spell for the right type of situation/enemy.

In this case: the rampant destruction of mountains, I would say why not? if it has a purpose for a wise, intelligent sorcerer.

O.K. My fault, perhaps I havn't been too clear.

I don't mind my characters having levels so to speak, like having to spend hard earned points for more powerful spells, as this is realistic. If you want to become an expert at anything you have to study and practice it. I'm not talking about the PC's being always godlike.

I just want to avoid - whether the spell be creating a little drop of water to a godlike power of destroying a planet - there being no repurcussions, especially drainage of some sort of magic pool, which in the fantasy/myths/legends that I have read doesn't seem to exist.

i, too, longed for a system that gave magicians real power, and didn't "dumb them down" to make them equal with a mere fighter, which is what many systems attempt to achieve. the purpose is simple in gaming terms: "why play any class other than spellcaster if they are all so much weaker?". and the answer is simple in my mind: "because it makes for a fun and interesting game, and even a spellcaster is only human and can still die from an arrow to the head."

how about a system where you can use any spell within your talent any time so long as you have the potential power to do so...without the need to learn it? and where you can literrally cast magic all day if you have the constitution to handle that much effort? where the only limitations to using magic are your own power with magic and the fact that manipulating the energy of the gods can be exhausting? i'm not a huge fantasy novel reader, but this is generally how magic is portrayed in Feist's Magician and Jordan's Wheel of Time, my two favourite series.

if these concepts seem plausible to you, you may want to check out Eclipse when i release it within the next week or so.

if you're interested, i can give you a run down via pm or in my thread here in this forum.

Multiverser obviously is not a fantasy game per se; it covers fantasy as part of covering everything, and in much the same way.

From one perspective, there are no limits on magic. You can design any spell you want, use it any time you want, invent new spells at need, cast the same spell repeatedly or switch spells as often as you want, know as many as you care to learn or invent, and essentially be that kind of wizard. Further, there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from being a powerful wizard and an expert swordsman, if you want to do that.

Now, there are limits on magic. You have to roll for success--just as you do for operating a weapon or driving a vehicle or riding a horse or leaping over a wall. The chance of success is tied to several factors, including your skill with this spell, your overall level of magical ability, the inherent power of the spell, and the amount of investment required to cast it. (A spell that leaves you tired after casting it is more likely to work than one which doesn't, for example. One that requires the use of both hands, loudly shouted words, and the destruction of some material object has a better chance of working than one that is done with a wave of a finger or a wink of an eye.) There is also a chance to botch, which grows as the chance of performing the skill successfully decreases. This is the same chance to botch that appears in all skills, but because you're talking about the chance of fouling up the release of supernatural energy, the potential outcomes are considerably more dangerous. So there are limits, even apart from the bias limitations that control how much magic is possible in any given universe. These limitations, though, feel more natural (at least to me, and it sounds like they fit better with your expectations): they're about whether you will succeed when you try to cast it this time, how much time you'll waste if you fail, and what will happen if it goes horribly wrong.

Not free, I'm afraid; well worth the money, though, if I do say so myself.

--M. J. Young

The reason that Gandalf doesn't use more magic is that he knows it attracts the attention of Sauron and his minions.

No, in most literature there aren't spell points and such, but there are almost always limits of some sort. Usually because the magic itself is a metaphor for something. So, while Shreyas is right in that we should respect your desires, the problem is that your stated desires seem to be based on erroneous assumptions.

First, you say:

There aren't too many systems that include penalizing a fighter character every time he wields his axe.

Probably the best example of the cost of magic is the Rune Lord series. Unfortuneately the series turned into some wierd bug hunt, but the magic system is so all freaking cool, that I'd love to do an RPG in it.

For those who haven't read it, the magic is basically what a MMORPG would call "buffing". You can increase your strength, stamina, speed, memory, charisma, etc, to truly superheroic levels. At one point in the series the main hero and main antagonist (in a buff up cold war against each other) have basically become the equivalent of the Hulk and the Flash combined.

In a sense the magic is unlimited, its "always on". But there are costs. The more mundane and less interesting cost is that the most powerful buff "metabolism" (the equivelent of casting a bunch of haste spells on yourself) ages you rapidly. More interesting is the need for balance to avoid becoming a man of "unfortuneate proportions". Too much haste and not enough strength and you simply can't breathe while running at 200 miles an hour, not enough stamina and you'll snap your legs off.

But the real cost, the super cool cost, is the Dedicates. Where does the added power come from? From other people. Want more strength, someone has to give you theirs. Want better vision? You'll leave someone blind. Etc. The Dedicate has to be willing, but that willingness can be coerced...there's a cost right there...of the "what would you do" nature.

But even better, is that the Dedicates don't die. See blood sacrifices of Virgins are pretty easy...there's the ick factor, but heck its a game, and the virgin is imaginary...so whatever. But the Dedicates live. When they die, your power disappears, so you have to keep them alive and safe.

This means dozens, hundreds, even thousands (at the ridiculous power levels) of largely helpless "disabled" types who need to be fed, cared for, and, most of all, protected from assassins.

That's probably the coolest price for magic I've ever seen.

Basically what people are trying to explain - as I see it - is that unlimited magic would be boring. There is no challenge.
The only thing making life interesting in such a world would be the need for (as you call it) reasonable use of magic. This need comes from consequences casting brings with itself. In any game it is up to the gamemaster to make these consequences (maybe threats) transparent to the players.

I guess you are just looking for a subtle way to do so, something which feels more natural than just waving with a table of casting cost (or the like).

But you will not find that in a system! It's the trick that makes a good gamemaster.

On the other hand - even with the most stupid system, providing a collection of spells with constant cost - a good gamemaster can tell the story in a way, that magic aquires a mythical air (although I agree, that an interesting system makes life easier).

In short:
Your problem is not to find an RPGSystem which employs completely free magic (take any, just drop the restrictions), but to find a way to keep magic interesting still when you do so - which is the job of the story/setting.
There are a couple of good suggestions on that in the previous posts!

I have played and enjoyed a game where magic had no incremental cost. My mage has 40 effect points to spend within certain domains (light, life, water, truth). The allocated effects are always available without paying per use. To change the allocation, I pay a small time penalty. Other than taking a little time, rebuilding my effect list is free. Silver Age Sentinels supports handling magic in similar ways: Dynamic Power and Power Flux.

Surely no one will say I don't have fun because I don't pay per use.

John

This thread has become about the various methods of restrictions on magic usage, e.g. it's dangerous, it's immoral , it attracts the attention of evil, uses mana, suffers karma, etc.. etc.. Which I was trying to avoid at first but sure it is interesting and some people seem to find the idea of "always on" magic difficult to understand.

John Burdick likens magic to superhero powers - they are inherint to the character - just like someone who is born pretty, they don't have to make an effort to look good. Though some who are pedantic may contest that Supermans x-ray vision isn't really "magic". No it may not be but can't magic work this way? Can't someone be born a magician? This is how I was thinking.

First, you say:Quote:
There aren't too many systems that include penalizing a fighter character every time he wields his axe.
This is untrue. There are actually quite a lot of systems that do this. Yes, magic also tires Gandalf. You'll find that most "Spell Point" systems mean that drainage from the system causes physical drain. The point is that they're mostly simulating the idea that magic does fatigue the caster. And I think that this is usually quite appropriate.

So, I'd ask you again. Are you sure you want no cost whatsoever? Or are you just against really bland costs that don't seem to represent anything in the literature?

Do you want magic to be tiring?
Do you want magic to be dangerous?
Are there karmic problems with using too much magic?
Do you want there to be cultural limitations on the use of magic?
Are there other uses that would be cool?

But the real cost, the super cool cost, is the Dedicates. Where does the added power come from? From other people. Want more strength, someone has to give you theirs. Want better vision? You'll leave someone blind. Etc. The Dedicate has to be willing, but that willingness can be coerced...there's a cost right there...of the "what would you do" nature.

But even better, is that the Dedicates don't die. See blood sacrifices of Virgins are pretty easy...there's the ick factor, but heck its a game, and the virgin is imaginary...so whatever. But the Dedicates live. When they die, your power disappears, so you have to keep them alive and safe.

This means dozens, hundreds, even thousands (at the ridiculous power levels) of largely helpless "disabled" types who need to be fed, cared for, and, most of all, protected from assassins.

That's probably the coolest price for magic I've ever seen.

Earthdawn lets you cast spells without depleting effects and is otherwise fairly trad fantasy (although in Earthdawn. the fighter's attack and the thieves lockpicking and so on are all also explicitly magical).

If you want magic without repercussions that is in some sense "just who you are," I would think that a really strong Supers system would fit the bill nicely. You just don't allow (or require) the weakness or limitation that magic costs something to use.

You could do this admirably with Champions. Everybody gets powers in the usual way, and you just demand that the "special effects" (which don't cost anything anyway) be in tune with your world's notion of magic. You block the "causes Fatigue" or whatever limitations, and everyone just builds from there. You'll end up with spells/magic powers that have limits in the sense that they aren't infinite -- you can't simply destroy the universe -- but where the limits are simply limits. Sort of like a glass of water: it's not that it costs extra, or is tiring, or whatever to put an extra couple of ounces in the glass, but that the glass is only so large. The limit is intrinsic, not something you pay for.

Myself, I would think this could readily slide into rather colorless magic, because all the color and so forth has nothing to do with the powers themselves; they're tacked on as special effects. But that problem is something you can solve with a good game-world explanation of what magic is and how it works.

Chris Lehrich

I too have searched for a system that would allow a magic-using character to sling spells all day long without running out of gas. One of the biggest roadblocks to such a system has been the shibboleth of game balance-- in the typical FRPG, the magic using characters power level increases geometrically (did I spell that right?) while the power level of fighters/thieves increases arithmetically. Thus, magic using characters needed to be limited.

The key to breaking this mold would be to decrease the ultimate power of magic available to PCs in order to keep the spellslingers at a level of parity with the grunts. I'm not suggesting that magic shouldn't be able to do some way cool stuff, just that there is a difference between way cool and out-of-kilter. For example, in the DnD3E context, I would draw the line at spells of fourth level and below.

I like to play mages, but for me, the best part of magic is the variety, not necessarily the power. I think that a system that kept magic using characters comparable in power to everyone else could permit spellcasters to cast all day without disrupting the game balance.

'Nuff said

Andy

A little off track, but...

Were you looking for a system that truly meant unlimited use of magic, sort of superheroish in effects, or were you looking for a system that allowed unlimited flexibilty? Basically, magicusers can attempt all sorts of things, as long as they can conceptualize the effect? The second possibilty does all sorts of bad things to game balance, but that might not be such a big deal if wizards were compared to wizards, and not to fighters, thieves, etc.

Another side thing: I thought Gandalf used very little magic because he had been a rebel firespirit (Balrog?) during the wars of the Silmarils, and now was getting back in good with Manwe by doing his pennance in the form of an old man of reduced power watching Middle Earth for the spirit lords of the Undying Lands. Actually, I thought this was the general background of all the Istari.

andy wrote:
I like to play mages, but for me, the best part of magic is the variety, not necessarily the power. I think that a system that kept magic using characters comparable in power to everyone else could permit spellcasters to cast all day without disrupting the game balance.

Bluve Oak wrote: John Burdick likens magic to superhero powers - they are inherint to the character - just like someone who is born pretty, they don't have to make an effort to look good. Though some who are pedantic may contest that Supermans x-ray vision isn't really "magic". No it may not be but can't magic work this way? Can't someone be born a magician? This is how I was thinking.

Even in Xanth there are inherent limitations to magic, though they are complex and character-unique.

There's a girl Surprise, for instance, who can do absolutely anything, but only once. Another character composes poems to drive effects, but again the poems work only once. (Thinking, some of these might come from other Anthony writing.)

Yet another character can create spots of color on anything; these spots don't do anything unusual, they're just differently-colored. But he can do this effortlessly, with only slight attention and an instant.

Looked at from a game-design perspective, Xanth characters have powers where scope and power are related to flexibility, and increasing one generally requires a decrease of another (though there are exceptions.)

Another side thing: I thought Gandalf used very little magic because he had been a rebel firespirit (Balrog?) during the wars of the Silmarils, and now was getting back in good with Manwe by doing his pennance in the form of an old man of reduced power watching Middle Earth for the spirit lords of the Undying Lands. Actually, I thought this was the general background of all the Istari.

Bluve Oak wrote: John Burdick likens magic to superhero powers - they are inherint to the character - just like someone who is born pretty, they don't have to make an effort to look good. Though some who are pedantic may contest that Supermans x-ray vision isn't really "magic". No it may not be but can't magic work this way? Can't someone be born a magician?

It seems to me that the original poster is being perfectly reasonable. I don't see why people are bringing in the strawman of systemless play.

We are talking about games where the mechanical limits on magic do not involve any sort of bean counting during play. Discuss ideas for systems that meet this goal. I've given examples: In BESM, flight level 1, 4 points allows a character to fly and hover. Period. No slots, mana, energy, endurance, penalty, or risk incured for the use of the power.

John

I think there are major misunderstandings going on here! lol.

We are not (weren't) disputing limits of power, but rather limits of usage. Comprende Amigos. See the difference?

As far as limits of usage go we have already established many themes, once again: it is exhausting, it is dangerous, etc.. Mike Holmes wrote a wonderful post earlier on the price of magic.

All I'm looking for is a system that treats these issues like everything else and I go back to my "swinging an axe is exhausting" example. Likewise taking an axe to your friends head would be a dangerous thing to do socially but not many systems have rules for penalizing one for doing so. It's common sense on the players part - if they want the adventure to continue.

Let's imagine Character A has a insy winsy fireball as his weapon. Character B has a Sword and shield.

All I want is for Character A to hurl that ball all day long if he wants in the same way that Character B thrusts his sword.

Character B COULD stab his King or misuse his power of swordsmanship in any number of ways but the repurcussions aren't stated in the system because it is assumed that Players want to play the game! When someone steps outside the ethical boundaries or misinterprets their characters personality it is all handled (by the GM) in the story.

In this sense I accept the ethical, character, dangerous etc. limitations of magic as handled by common sense (not by the system). But sure if someone does misuse magic then yeah maybe he gets a few points deducted and a slap on the wrist just as someone who misused his sword would.

Now, I may get replies saying that an "insy winsy" fireball is a limitation but this is a misunderstanding. As I have said before I don't mind the limitation of "leveling up"/"power scaling"/etc.. I just don't want any "in-system" repurcussions for using magic - especially in a very bland magic pool depleting way. The post is title "Inexhaustive magic" after all.

I hope this is clearer. I dearly appreciate all the input.

Heroquest may not exactly be like this but everything else I have read about it is turning me on and I am ordering the book.

So, wait.

If a system says, "If you do anything, it tires you and you're less good at doing that thing later", you still don't want to have anything to do with that, because there's an in-system repercussion, though it's global and not magic-specific. Correct?

HQ actually encourages magic to a great degree; not only is magic "free", it's on a wholly different plane of effectiveness, and can simply defure mortal opposition.

I think you'll get the most mileage out of a system that doesn't distinguish systematically between magic and mundane action, really. "Magic" implies "crazy special thing with limited access," which is exactly what you don't want.

Shreyas Sampat wrote: I think you'll get the most mileage out of a system that doesn't distinguish systematically between magic and mundane action, really. "Magic" implies "crazy special thing with limited access," which is exactly what you don't want.

Good point, and worded better than when I did it a while back: Bluve ruled out Nobilis as being too far beyond "standard fantasy fare", but I argued that a toned-down retooling of Nobilis would be just the ticket. (Drop Realm and replace Domain with something that boils down to "class" and you're halfway there).

Exactly. I used Nobilis to run a superheroes game once. Had stats for Physical, Superpowers, and Idiom (basically your "Class"). Nobilis style ability levels would probably work in a dice-based system too, if you were really into Fortune mechanics. Fudge dice might be a good option though, or some other system that would give you some variation on a given norm/level.

Bluve Oak wrote: All I'm looking for is a system that treats these issues like everything else and I go back to my "swinging an axe is exhausting" example.

Well, I really like the sound of Heroquest but Nobilis is taking my interest too. I read at the HQ forum that the HQ system was similar to Marvel Superheroes so I downloaded all the MS files and it does look good but it is a superhero RPG and I prefer a fantasy/mythic setting, hence HQ. If Nobilis can be run as a superhero game than i'm sure I would dig it too.
So on your advise I will look further into:

* Nobilis (first port of call)
* BESM (have seen tri-stat dx - o.k. but...)
* Donjon
* Feng Shui
* Multiverser
* Ars Magica (Already checked it out - excellent but...)

Best way to get a handle on Nobilis: read the extended Example of Play available as a PDF on the Guardians of Order site. As for the rest, I hope you find a system that works for you or scrap together enough components to build your own.

Bluve Oak wrote: John Burdick likens magic to superhero powers - they are inherint to the character - just like someone who is born pretty, they don't have to make an effort to look good. Though some who are pedantic may contest that Supermans x-ray vision isn't really "magic". No it may not be but can't magic work this way? Can't someone be born a magician? This is how I was thinking.

Like Ian Charvill said earlier -- Earthdawn.

You can swing your spells all day long without so much as a drop of sweat. If anything, the warrior-types will tire earlier than your average mage ever will (but even this can be tweaked). One casts spells using the same system as for everything else, and the game remains quite "balanced" even at higher power levels.

The downside of Earthdawn is the Step system it is using. It is a good linear system, and very sound probability-wise, but it is also quite intimidating to many at first, mainly because it uses different combinations of dice for every Step. The system is also tied to a unique game world, which might not be to everyone's liking.

MarK.