Hullo.

Just wondering about stats for different types off dagger.
The way I read the stats in App. 2 in the Book, the stats there are mainly for poniard and rondel daggers, but how about stilettos and dirks?

Will there be any significant chages in ATN/DTN or damage?

How about more exotic dagger types such as Kukri or Kris?

I guess a stilleto would have very little cutting damage (usually no edge) and a kukri a high thrusting ATN, but how about other types, especially DTN?

Edit: BTW, is there a special name for double-edged daggers?

If Im not totally wrong, the defenition of a dagger is that it has two edges, and a knife has one edge.

Rondels and stilettos usually have no edges, and poniards and dirks usually have one edge.

Are these not daggers then?

Of course, I'm talking about sharpened edges here, and I may be totally wrong... :)

Edit: Will dirks be used with the Dagger proficiency, or are they too long, so they have to be used with the short sword proficiency?

I would run Dirks as being the same as rondels in game effect. i remember jake saying something recently about him using a dagger which may be considered by some as a shortsword but it depends on the game your in and the person running it

I have a few things to say here on dagger stats.

At one point in my life I was a soldier. The nature of the specific job I had required that I know how to fight using a knife. I found that the knife was generally not very good for cutting people during our training, so we always used the point. The reason being is, regardless of how sharp an edge is, you will invariably use it on other things and dull it pretty quickly. Also, as I have had reinforced with my experience as a scholar of the longsword and recruit of the rapier, the blade geometry of what we would consider a commando knife/dagger does not have the correct/optimum blade geometry neccesary to create massive injuries with a cut. In short, regardless of how sharp the blade is, it will not cut like a sword, regardless of how sharp the edge is. There are of course exceptions, like the khukri I was issued, a definite and mean chopper. However, as its blade geometry is not anything like that of "conventional" blades, it falls well outside this discussion. I could prove this to you by doing almost the same amout and type of damage with a variety of weapons sharp and not, the majority of the cut relies upon the shape of the blade and the skill of the wielder, not the sharpeness of the edge.

As almost all of these blades share a striking resemblance in blade geometry, I feel that they are pretty well covered, except maybe the stilleto, which has an even suckier blade geometry for cutting, but will generally be much better at penetrating maille.

Also, as a side note, be wary of these fancy crazy looking blades with all these exotic shapes and wild handles. In my time as a soldier I found the optimum blade designs were already thought up over four hundred years ago, when they were using these things as a matter of life and death much more frequently than we do today.

Rondel refers to a type of hilt, which supported one of several different kinds of blades, the majority of which had at least one sharp edge. Several different hilt types supported the same variety of blades, rondels being the most popular in the 15th century among soldiers and martial artists in europe.
Some blades, particularly on baselard hilts could get long enough to use short sword stats.
Most modern combat knives have excellent blade geometry for cutting and slicing, but lack the length (leverage) and mass (weight) to deliver an effective cut or disabling slice. The point is used to best effect with knives, especially in war (modern or otherwise).

I don't know if it is correct to consider a Kukri as a dagger. As a former practitioner of Bando I have some training in Kukri and can say they are capable of things that would not be possible with any dagger, in fact they are used (and viewed) more like a sword. A kukri in the hands of a trained soldier (like the Ghurkas) is easily capable of taking off an arm or leg, or even behead opponents with a single swipe. The cutting power of these blades in the hands of an expert is truly shocking, and I am speaking about the smaller (12"-18" of so) ones.

The large cerimonial blades (24") can literally take the head off a full grown water buffalo. This is in fact the reason they are issued to Ghurka regiments.

Regarding a special name for double edged dagger, I've also generally heard the term dagger reserved for two bladed weapons, and single bladed one classed as knives.

Hey Guys, since I don't see the words Main Gauche (spelling probably wrong here) in the book anywhere, does that fall into one of the listed two types, or is it yet another. I guess what I'm really asking is what DTN to use.

Tash wrote: I don't know if it is correct to consider a Kukri as a dagger. As a former practitioner of Bando I have some training in Kukri and can say they are capable of things that would not be possible with any dagger, in fact they are used (and viewed) more like a sword. A kukri in the hands of a trained soldier (like the Ghurkas) is easily capable of taking off an arm or leg, or even behead opponents with a single swipe. The cutting power of these blades in the hands of an expert is truly shocking, and I am speaking about the smaller (12"-18" of so) ones.

The large cerimonial blades (24") can literally take the head off a full grown water buffalo. This is in fact the reason they are issued to Ghurka regiments.

Regarding a special name for double edged dagger, I've also generally heard the term dagger reserved for two bladed weapons, and single bladed one classed as knives.

Bando isn't the official martial art of the Gurkhas, rather it hails from Burma. During the British occpation of that nation many of the Gurkhas stationed there studied Bando and the kukri became incorporated into the system. It retains that importance today, even though Burma is no longer subject to British rule, but Bando is not the offical martial art of the Gurkhas.

I point this out often, but it's worth mentioning that the Kurkri knife is descended from the ancient Greek Falcata / Kopis sword, (the former is probably identical to the larger Kurkri, the latter were up to three feet long!) The weapon was introduced to India via Alexanders troops. Another notable descendant of this weapon is the Turkish Yataghan (sp)

Don't forget, by the way, that TFOB may very well have many new weapons in it.

JR

If memory serves, the Egyptian Khopesh sword actually predates the Greek weapons and given the level of contact between the two societies is the likely antecedent for them.

I really hate to brake into your discussion here, but if we could go back to my initial questions?

What stats should be used for different types of daggers/knives?

Are the stats in the Book only for rondel and poniard daggers?

The granularity of TROS is too course to allow much differentiation between dagger types. I mean when you have what...2 points of damage different between an arming sword and a long sword...how much room for different types of daggers is there really?

You have your thrusty daggers, and you have your slashy daggers. I'd go with the stats that are there and call it whatever you want, honestly.

Valamir wrote: The granularity of TROS is too course to allow much differentiation between dagger types. I mean when you have what...2 points of damage different between an arming sword and a long sword...how much room for different types of daggers is there really?

You have your thrusty daggers, and you have your slashy daggers. I'd go with the stats that are there and call it whatever you want, honestly.

Starshadow wrote: I really hate to brake into your discussion here, but if we could go back to my initial questions?

What stats should be used for different types of daggers/knives?

Are the stats in the Book only for rondel and poniard daggers?

Starshadow wrote: I really hate to brake into your discussion here, but if we could go back to my initial questions?

What stats should be used for different types of daggers/knives?

Are the stats in the Book only for rondel and poniard daggers?

Hey Starshadow,

I think what they're all saying here is use the two in the book as a basis, and adjust them up or down a point on ATN and up or down a point on DTN to match whatever specialization you think a specific dagger has....which assumes you personally know what daggers have what specializations. At least that's what I gathered from the recent Main Gauche thread. It sounded like they told me there that the poniard is basically the standard left hand dagger, and that there really aren't that many differences between daggers. So basically what everyone is probably saying here is take those as your basis, and if you yourself think a specific dagger has some advantage in attack over a normal dagger then pop the ATN down by one. If you yourself think a specific dagger was designed to maximize defense at the expense of some attack characteristics, then pop the DTN down by one but pop the ATN up by one (and possibly add some minor armor value specifically for that hand). If you yourself think a specific dagger was designed to maximize attack at the expense of some defense characteristics, then pop the DTN up by one but pop the ATN down by one.

At least I THINK that's what they're saying...and that that is pretty much your options until TFOB comes out with possibly a few more weapon listings...somebody please jump all over me and hand me my head on a platter if I'm wrong.

Thanks to Salamander, Toli, and Caz for helping out.

added edit:
oh...IF this is right, before you do too much adjusting on your own I'd suggest keeping an eye on ATN's and DTN's on other weapons, specifically swords, so you don't beef a dagger up to the point where it equals or surpasses an obviously more substantial weapon.

Cutting knife:

Cut ATN: 7
Stab ATN: 8
Cut dmg: ST
Stab dmg: ST-2
DTN: 7

This was done by reversing the regular daggers from the book. A no edged weapon piercer would add +2 dmg vs mail and +1 vs metal, a longer knife would probably have DTN 6. Just remember that when a dagger reaches 20" it becomes a short sword by the rules.

Okay

Thanx, folks

Starshadow wrote: I really hate to brake into your discussion here, but if we could go back to my initial questions?

What stats should be used for different types of daggers/knives?

Are the stats in the Book only for rondel and poniard daggers?