I hope this belongs here. I don't swim much in this end of the pool. I usually stick to "Publishing" and occassionally stick my toe into "RPG Theory".
But I think this one belongs here. My apologies in advance if I'm mistaken.

I recently took some heat in the Fantasy Races in FRPGs thread
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10006
over in RPG Theory.
Still, it was a thought provoking debate and I'd like to follow up on it and get some feedback, but this doesn't belong in that thread.

The following...
http://www.madelf.net/halflingsample.PDF
is a link to an excerpt from my game (in development), and is the write-up of the halfling race I was using as an example in that thread.

What I'm trying to do is address the issue of potentially racist content by comparing apples to apples. I can talk about what I'm saying all day, but showing is more to the point. That way you can see what I'm saying, as opposed to what I say I'm saying...I hope that makes sense.

So anyone who feels like taking a couple of minutes to look it over and give me your thoughts, please do.
If they turn out to be, "Okay, you're doing pretty good, but you should tone down this or that and address the other thing differently", then great.
If it's more a case of "Oh my god, what were you thinking? That's totally over the top and unacceptable, and you're going to have fine upstanding Irish people everywhere descending upon you in protest"...well, not so good. But probably something I need to know anyway.

I said that one should make some attempt to avoid being an asshat, so here it is.
Let the rocks fly.
:)

First impression.. These people are not halflings strongly based on the Irish... They're Irish strongly based on halflings.

Yes, I'm aware that it's closer to Irish stereotype, but that's not the point. You take more than the cultural personality because you take the names, and the basic relationships.

Is this a bad thing? I think no, not really. I've not met many true-blooded Irishmen. I HAVE met many "Irish-Americans" who are very proud of their culture, and most of them would jump at this race if asked to play your game.

If your intent is to make it obvious that the Halflings are the Irish in your world, then you're doing fine. It's an interesting take on Halflings, and I don't see it being offensive.. but then, I'm an American whose strongest claims to European blood are Scottish and German, and probably no small part English, and who identifies himself entirely as an American.. I despise the very concept of hyphenated-Americans.

Yes, Ireland is also called Eireann, so not quite the same...but close enough to be blatantly obvious.

I've debated myself about using the name Aieren. I've kept it so far primarily because I haven't yet come up with something better.
This particular one is the most obvious example of what I'm doing, so I thought it would be a good representative example simply by that extreme.
I figure if this one is inoffensive, then the others are likely to be as well.
Or I can hope so.

I have not used quite such obvious terminology elsewhere, but I have in several instances used terminology taken from the language of the source culture.

I'm not sure if I can say that it was my concious intent to make halflings the Irish of my world, but thinking about it in that way, it is true that they fill that role. In trying to simulate real cultural relationships, I have structured things in such a way that fantasy races do take the place of what would be a real race or culture in our world. My thought process was based on creating races based on real cultures and I guess it does have to flow both ways.

Just to venture a guess (and I am a good 1/4 German mind you), would dwarves happen to be the Germans of your world? Thinking of stereotypes (more so of the older, like middle ages), germans are of the stout type, like good beer, can easily envision them with huge beards and the kind of gruff attitude that befits a dwarf...usually not the size, but the general (stereotypical) depiction seems to fit ^_^
Actually, I think that'd be fun myself...

Actually no, the dwarves are Scottish deriviatives.
A little too predictable I suppose, but they always seemed to be closely related to halflings in my mind for some reason. Scotland and Ireland strike me the same way, so that was the way I went.

For germanic-based peoples, all I've got are the Sorcerer Lords and serfs of Konigsheim (aka The Dread Empire) or the Giants of the Frozen North (aka the NordUlfr of RykrGardh). They are inspired by a feudal spin on Nazi germany mixed with blood magic, and Icelandic Vikings, respectively.

I have to agree though, German dwarves would be pretty darn cool.
I almost wish I'd thought of it.

Branch race then maybe? Could work ^_^ Especially considering not all 'races' are the same (homogeneous is the word I think I'm looking for). Having other members of the dwarf family would be fun~

In The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings it's pretty obvious that Hobbit culture is based on 19th century rural english culture. Is that racist? Why might basing Hobbit culture on rural Irish culture be any more or less racist?

I think the potential for racism only realy arrises if you present, or mis-represent a culture in a patronising or derogatory way.


Simon Hibbs

simon_hibbs wrote: In The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings it's pretty obvious that Hobbit culture is based on 19th century rural english culture. Is that racist? Why might basing Hobbit culture on rural Irish culture be any more or less racist?

I think the potential for racism only realy arrises if you present, or mis-represent a culture in a patronising or derogatory way.


Simon Hibbs

OT: well, then, happy St. Froddy's Day, and don't be forgetting to wear the green!

Doctor Xero

madelf wrote:
Well, thing is...I don't think my presentation is racist, I don't think the premise of basing my fantasy races on real-world cultures is racist.

Again, I start with my "hmmm"-age, but as introduction to this...

Charles Dickens wrote: "For it is not in Christian countries with the Jews as with other peoples," Mr. Riah reflects. "Men say, 'This is a bad Greek, but there are good Greeks. This is a bad Turk, but there are good Turks.' Not so with the Jews. Men find the bad among us easily enough -- among what people are the bad not easily found? -- but they take the worst of us as samples of the best; they take the lowest of us as presentations of the highest; and they say 'All Jews are alike.'"

Pete Darby's vast presumption wrote: As a moments notice will demonstrate, the fantasy races in this game are based on the strongest possible sterotypes of the nations of Europe.

In using these stereotypes, we're using a recognisable shorthand, not too different from that used in most fantasy games. Everyone "knows" elves are effeminate wood-guys with bows, dwarves are grumpy, axe-wielding miners, and you always check your wallet when a halfling enters the room.

Yes, yes, I know your PC's are fine exceptions to this, but we're talking about everyone else's characters, and everbody your character left at home, right?

So you know that all dwarves are grumpy axe weilding miners... apart from the ones that aren't.

Bingo.

We've only got a little space to describe each (nation/species/race/whatever), so bear with us. We've only got room for the stereotype... and we've decided to use the stereotypes from European nations.

Still not comfortable... okay, look at it this way: each of the short introductions is what a reasonably inquisitive, but not particularly well informed or well travelled person would "know" about that nation. Think about what, for example, a bright Londoner of the 18th century would know of the Irish. Yep, it's pretty much what you see in the section on halflings. No matter even if he knew a few Irish folk, and they weren't like that... it's what the Londoner would "know" the Irish, as a whole, were like.

Those sections are "in character" information for your PC, and we presume your ability to go beyond these stereotypes in your play, at least as far as you would in playing, say, an Irishman in a "real world" setting.

Of course, if you want every Halfling to be a fighting drunk redhead with religious tolerance problems... knock yourself out, we won't send the game police round to stop you. But equally, don't claim we made you do it if someone takes offence.

Jeez, that was arrogant of me to tell you what to put in... but you asked for the constructive...!

well, take it wholesale... but I'd appreciate a mention somwhere if you do!

pete_darby wrote: well, take it wholesale... but I'd appreciate a mention somwhere if you do!

An interesting thread, with alot of good discourse.

But one idea I haven't seen presented is this:

Calvin, why do you want to set up your world this way to begin with? You've stated that you've chosen to go with various stereo types of European peoples. My question is why.

You know this is a pandora's box, you're actively thinking about ways to reduce the negative feedback...why do it all? What does your game gain by setting up races this way?

Is it just because this is a long time house campaign world and that's how your group did things? I'm not sure this is really a sufficient reason. You're feeling all warm and bubbly about the campaign world but those without the benefit of nostalgia aren't necessarily going to see it that way. What does using racial stereo types gain you except making your game a target?

Whether its a legitimate target or not is immaterial...it will be a target, and people will label the game (and likely you, because that's how the internet is) racist.

Why do you even want to walk into that maelstrom to begin with?

I mean, I could see it perhaps if you were trying to make a statement, like say All in the Family made; but I'm not seeing any of that...are you making a statement of some kind?

I'll be the first (and have been) to stand up and say the "racist" label gets thrown around far too easily today, but I guess I'm not really seeing the point of what you're trying to do. It seems a little frivolous to me...ok, it actually seems a lot frivolous to me, which is why I'm asking the question.

Why make them Irish stereotypes to begin with? Regardless of how people would or wouldn't respond, or what they should or shouldn't read into it, or what you can or can't do to mitigate it...what does your game gain from doing it at all?

I'm not seeing an upside here.

Y'know what, yer probably safe using the irish stereotype, especially if you're american born and especially if you're selling to americans of irish descent. I mean, c'mon, it's the stereotype we use for ourselves. The short part is a bit bothersome, though.

racist punk.

kidding.

k-Bob

You might want to note that Victoriana (a steampunk RPG) got flack for having African Orcs (a search of the RPG.NET forums will turn up the threads). So people do take offence.

That said, companies with modern world settings often seem to get away with hideous stereotypes (White Wolf's Fianna spring to mind, also being Irish based) with minimal complaint.

-Matt

It's interesting that Matt brings up the Victoriana RPG.
It's actually an appropriate example.

Although I have only a passing familiarity with the game, having heard about it online but not having seen it first hand, it seems that the basic concept for my game is not entirely unlike that of Victoriana.
My setting is based on a pseudo-victorian time period (though I want to play down the punk and go for a more fantasy by gaslight theme), and I'm treading similar ground in placing fantasy races in what are often recognisable as real places. Though they went further and used the real world names, the general idea is the same.
The RPGnet thread he mentions is also the first real indicator I had that I was going to get flack. Fortunately, as I recall, that thread also had a good healthy dose of intelligent comment on the ignorance of those making the racist accusations, and I found that part encouraging. I was still a bit concerned that placing a tribe of orcs in Africa would cause such a stir, especially since not all Africans were depicted as orcs in the first place and they were apparently handled quite sympathetically besides. It proved to me that some people will be offended by anything. Something I needed to have a firm grasp of for my project.



As far as offending the Irish, I trust that will be the least of my crimes against humanity.
With "American Indian" Elves, "Gypsy" Gnomes, "Nazi german" sorcerors, and "Spanish" witch-hunters (ie: the Spanish Inquisition), etc, etc...I'm sure the Halflings will go nearly unnoticed. I believe in equal opportunity offensiveness, you see.

As to why I'm doing this...that's a question that must have an answer, but I have yet to put it into words properly. I tried to come up with some reasons in the other thread, that started this, but I didn't entirely succeed there either.

About the best I can say is that it feels right.
Everything else I've come up with is a rationalization of why it feels right.

It's not nostalgia. While some small pieces of the setting are recycled from an old D&D game, there really isn't much left. The game as it stands now has never been run (mechanic or campaign). My gaming group will be making characters next week in preparation for the first round of playtesting. So there's nothing "warm and bubbly" tying me to any of my design choices.

I've considered changing things, doing it a different way.

I've thought about stripping off the real-world influences from the races and countries in the game world, just create everything out of as close as I could get to whole cloth... and it didn't "feel" right.

I thought about just dumping the fictional names and just saying that "in this world the halflings live in Ireland and they're these short guys who are just like the Irish. The Gnomes are gypsys and they're just like the Rom people. Germany is run by the Nazis everyone is familiar with, except that they use magic" ... and it didn't "feel" right.

I thought about getting rid of fantasy races entirely and doing an all-human alternate history setting...and it still didn't feel right.

One thing I've been thinking about (and which may come close to pinning down at least a part of what is really just a gut feeling about the direction I want my game to go) is the ability of an intelligent person (I'll go ahead and make the vain and foolish assumption that anyone who choses to read my game book is very intelligent) to overcome a stereotype, to identify it and see beyond it. So if they read the description of the Halflings of Aieren (understanding that the description itself is a stereotype) and realize "Hey, these halflings are the Irish"... then suddenly that person reading my book has a huge, nearly endless, and readily available source for understanding the awe inspiring depth and scope of the halfling people... because they can now borrow on the centuries of culture and history that make the Irish people what they really are...everything that the reader knows, or can learn, about the Irish will give his halfling character that much more depth and "realism".


Still, even then, there's more to it that I can't really explain. I guess what it comes down to is that if I'm going to do it, it has to feel right. To me. I have to trust in my own vision, and do it my own way. If I don't then it's not my creation any more. It's creation by commitee. It's some watered down, half-hearted, pathetic thing I cranked out to be PC.

And I think that would be far more of a wrong than any inadvertant offense I might cause in following my own path.

That doesn't mean I have to be a jerk about it though. And that's why I'm here. I want to be able to say that I did what I could to make my intentions clear. Then if you still dislike me for it, that's fine. That is your choice, and I wouldn't take it away from you if I could. But I did what I felt was right, and for that reason I'll be able to sleep soundly at night regardless of what accusations are made against me.
I think that's about all I can ask for.

I certainly have no conceptual problem with the idea.

But I would recommend trying to pin down some explainable reasons for the "feel". Whether you put those reasons into the text, or just have them handy for the inevitable controversy, you'll want to have a response ready that demonstrates that you've given the matter serious thought and didn't decide to do it gratuitously.

Being able to state a case succinctly that relies on something more than just "it feels right" will help diffuse all but the more hard core blatherers, I think. But not having a clear and concise message, I think will leave you more vulnerable.

Excellent advice, Ralph.
And I do intend to keep trying to figure out why I feel the way I do about it.
It is seeming like the more I try to talk about it and put it into words, the closer I'm getting to being able to.

I definitely still have some wracking of my poor brain to do though. As if it hasn't been through enough already.

:)

More musings...Bringing Realism to the Fantasy Race


Although I have not previously put my reasons for doing this project under the microscope to the extent that I have lately, I did begin with a vague notion of what I wanted. (This notion even predated the idea of making it a game rather than simply fiction) And it was a somewhat contradictory notion even then.
I love swords and sorcery fantasy. I love all the things that make the genre what it is. I love the magic, and the cliché races, and the heroics... and yet I had become bored with fantasy. This was not a tolerable situation.

So I thought about what was lacking. What had led to my boredom?
One was the setting. At the time, I did not feel I could bring myself to write (or read for that matter) another line of pseudo-medieval drivel. So I began by thinking of time periods that I found fascinating. Among several other periods, I have always felt drawn to the 19th century. So I started there, with a traditional "swords and sorcery" fantasy theme in a Victorian setting.

I was feeling better about my writing plans already, but I still wasn't done brainstorming. Another factor in my boredom was the lack of depth in far too much of the fantasy fiction I had been reading. It was cookie- cutter fiction for the most part, I've had little luck finding really good fantasy novels lately. When the weekly D&D game has more depth than my reading material, something has to change, and it ain't just the D&D game. But it wasn't depth that was the issue, not really. I've read a lot of Forgotten Realms stuff (some of it's really not bad as the genre goes), and that setting has more background detail and depth than any novel or game ever needed. I'd have to almost say there's too much.
So it wasn't so much depth I wanted, not really. I finally figured out that what I actually wanted was a bit more realism, a sense of believability. So all I wanted was the impossible. I wanted a realistic fantasy setting.

So I started creating one, in my own warped fashion.


Why Fantasy Races?

I believe that the use of fantasy races aids in reinforcing the fantastical quality of the setting. There is very little more effective than elves, dwarves, and gnomes to get across the point that this is not our world.

Fantasy races have a drawback as well. They have the disadvantage of being clichés. The particular race is almost always pretty much the same from game to game, and every member of the race is pretty much the same as every other member of that race. This is a limitation that is imposed (whether intentionally or otherwise) in many cases. I don't think it needs to be imposed. Just because they are fantasy races (to gain the beneficial aspects of the cliché), that does not mean they couldn't benefit from a healthy dose of reality (to diminish the short comings of the cliché).


My Crackpot Theories on Stereotypes Promoting Realism

After self-analyzing a bit, I've come up with some theories about what subconscious reasoning led me to the design decisions I've made regarding the races in my setting. Strangely it seems that despite my insistence to the contrary, by looking to enhance realism, I've built in more of a message (or at least a personal statement) than I originally realized.

They're still in the vague and formative stages, but here they are.

I theorize that tying the fantasy races to real world cultures will aid in "humanizing" the fantasy races. This may seem to be at odds with the reasons for using a fantasy race in the first place, but it really isn't (or doesn't have to be, at least). The existence of the fantasy race will still provide the desired "otherworldly" first impression, while the resemblance to a known culture helps add a depth and scope to the fantasy race that might otherwise be lacking. I feel that the very fact of the stereotype will, hopefully, aid the players in grasping the notion that members of the fantasy race should be individuals. When a person sees what is clearly a stereotype, then they will also, by extension, see beyond that stereotype to the understanding that (in this fictional world as in our own) the individuals are not defined by the perception of an entire group, (although they may be effected by that perception, which I'll get to shortly). This should serve to reinforce the idea of greater depth and "humanity" for the fantasy races rather than the usual drill of every dwarf being a miner because that's what all dwarves are.

So my premise is that the existence of a recognizable stereotype will (by contrast to it's own limited nature). help to negate the necessarily limited description (stereotype) of the fantasy race. And that, by using this inherent reaction to stereotypes, it will give the fictional setting more perceived depth, and will aid in the suspension of disbelief (while at the same time still reinforcing the idea that it is in some ways different than our own reality). I think it will also help make the point that these fantasy races are actually races (as opposed to different species that are simply called races, as is the norm in the fantasy genre) who are not so very different from one another as they may be initially perceived.

I find this highly appropriate for a setting that emulates the 19th century, a time when it was far more common than today to think of people of another race (or even social class in many cases) as something other than one's fellow man. Using the fantasy races will simulate that sense of "other", while the ties to real world stereotype (that is blatantly acknowledged as such) will appeal to the more modern understanding that we really are all fellow men (and women). It should provide an interesting dichotomy, to balance the perceptions of the time period emulated by the game with the reality that although we are all different, we are still very much the same.

To sum up, it should give a very slight sense of the racial/cultural value system of the period without dragging the actual levels of social unpleasantness out into the harsh light of day, or (far worse) into play. It will allow the setting to address the realistic issues of racial division (and it's a candyland setting if it assumes that no-one hates their fellow sentient beings for one ignorant reason or another) without having to make it as ugly as it actually was (or even still is). The fantasy races then become the rose-colored glasses we peer through at a time when people were less socially enlightened than we are today. Racism is real. Racism will appropriately exist in any historical or pseudo-historical setting that bears even the slightest sense of realism. So we will acknowledge its existence, but we will not revel in it.

I don't know if this makes any more sense than anything else I've said, but it's at least getting me another step closer to figuring out how to explain what the hell I was thinking.
Thanks for bearing with me.

*takes a deep breath*

You guys are far more literate then I, I've had to re-read some of your posts twice to digest the meaning. My mother would be ashamed.

I would just like to throw out a few comments, mostly geared towards madelf's last post. (a little background might help. I run an online role play only group for adults, most of the eight races are custom crafted.)

We tried what you are trying ... take a sterotypical race and blend it with realistic earth cultures, and in our medium it was a dismal flop. Its been a long time since I was actively involved in table top rp but I do remember the caliber of rper to be pretty high, so you may not experience this.

For our new project we are trying a slightly different formula, which I present, but may not serve your goals of a traditional fantasy genre. We went with a new fictional sub-human race with a blended historical base, layered with a healthy dose of mystical.

We choose a new sub-human race because we couldn't get the players of non-human's out of the stero type, no matter how much supporting material we provided. (and our game has over 1500 pages of content). The sub-human means they walk talk think and act like humans -- but we dont call them humans. Sounds like a minor distinction perhaps, but we also wanted to avoid the traditional human role-play of everything goes.

We blended the historical because it blurs the sterotype lines just a tad while still providing a source for additional research on the net, something players enjoy doing when they play a human based culture it seams. For one example we mixed highlander and viking into one kingdom.

The mystical was the last layer to provide the high fantasy, a god and culture that made this "new" race seem to be its very own.

Now I'm not sure if anything I said was helpful, just thought I'd share that at least in our medium we had difficulties getting players out of any percieved sterotype.

Lara

original removed.

Here is my central problem with the idea of humanising stereotypes. Stereotypes are, necessarily, a short hand form, a reduction, of a whole person let alone a group of people. Sometimes these stereotypes are essentially innocent shorthands; but even if they are not meant to be pernicious, they often become so.

A shorthand description of this nature leands itself easily to being abused. A certain spin or view can be imposed on the shorthand form; and becuase the shorthand form is being used precisely as a substitute for looking at the real thing, that spin or view can be propagated uncritically. At this point the short-form has become a propaganda tool, a weapon. More deliberately, a shorthand form can be used to very deliberately to demean, to vilify, to dehumanise, and because of our long and deep history of conflict, almost all of them have been.

So to me, it seems a futile effort to 'humanise' a stereotype when that stereotypes very function is to dehumanise the people it describes (allegedly). I don't think there is any realistic prospect that a use of a sterotype can serve the goal of undermining that stereotype - becuase if the user does not value the stereotype, why are they using it in the first place? Their usage implies recognition and validation.

It seems to me then that if the desire is to challenge a stereotype, the best method is to produce character to whom the streoitype would normally be applied, but without applying the stereotype. In other words, by the presentation of real people in all their glory and complexity. It seems to me I can do a betterb job of undermining a sterortype of 'the Irish' by producing real, complex Irish characters, rather than presenting a stereotype of the Irish and then exhorting my readers not to use it. That is only adopting a "do what I say, not what I do" approach, and is always unconvincing IMO.

Lara,
I must admit to having trouble following my own logic at times, so don't feel bad if it takes you some extra effort to figure out what I'm saying.

I'm interested in how you make the distinction between a "stereotypical race blended with earth cultures" and a "sub-human race with a blended historical base" (who are apparently human, just not called human). You say it's a minor distinction and I'm afraid I may have missed it as they seem to really be the same thing in essense. Or does the fact that it's a non-tradtional race help break the mold? Or is it the blended historical base rather than a more-or-less pure one what you think makes it work better?



Gareth,
Thanks for stopping by.

I guess you're saying that even presenting a stereotype as a stereotype and stating that it should be recognized and dealt with as such, is likely to be insufficient to get my point across.

Unfortunately I'm not convinced it's possible to describe "real people in all their glory and complexity" within the limited confines of a two or three page write-up in a game book, at least not accurately (in a novel it would certainly be possible to present a character with greater depth and complexity, but I don't have the option of that much space). This is part of the reasoning I'm using for falling back on presenting a stereotype, directly pointing to the fact that it is one and the reader should understand that it is only the common perception, not the actuality.

I'm also thinking that presenting stereotypes as stereotypes might be appropriate given the period setting and the quest for a level of "realism". Stereotypes were much more accepted as fact then, than they are now. So perhaps a slightly different approach would be to portray the stereotype even more blantantly as the common misperception by others that the race must live with, and then go on in the same descriptive space to provide a few additional pieces of information about the culture which contrast the stereotype. Still without trying to encompass all that is that people, but trying to make it increasingly clear that more is there than meets the eye.

If you've got any suggestions on how I might be able to portray a real culture based fantasy race in a full enough manner to avoid stereotype, I'd love to hear them. Or (even after your reference to the WW splatbooks) do you feel that the very attempt to do such a thing is doomed to failure?

I suspect that simply sticking fantasy races to real world cultures and calling them Irish Halflings, Gypsy Gnomes, and American Indian Elves would be at least as offensive as what I'm doing now. Although I did have a thought at one point about taking prominent creatures from regional folklore and making those the people inhabiting each particular region. So we'd have the Barbegazi of Northern France, the Ohdow being native to North America, Australian Bunyips, Welsh Pwca, etc., with no humans in the world at all.
Maybe something like that would go over better, I don't know.

I'll grant that the easiest solution would be to just toss the fantasy races and the fictional names out with the trash and simply acknowledge that these people are Irish, these are German, etc...
It would certainly enhance the realism aspect, and make it far easier to point to realistic cultures without exhaustive detailing. I just can't help but think it would loose something vital in the process.
And it might just open up a whole new can of worms when I bend reality and start merging time periods together and messing with historical events. And who will I tick off if I start using actual historical figures as npcs? (I know people have done it before, but I'm not sure how much flak they've received for it)
It seems the possibilities for disaster never end, so I can't see that I'd be any worse off doing it the way I am now and trying to minimize the potential for misunderstanding my intent.

Or does the fact that it's a non-tradtional race help break the mold? Or is it the blended historical base rather than a more-or-less pure one what you think makes it work better?

Unfortunately I'm not convinced it's possible to describe "real people in all their glory and complexity" within the limited confines of a two or three page write-up in a game book, at least not accurately (in a novel it would certainly be possible to present a character with greater depth and complexity, but I don't have the option of that much space). This is part of the reasoning I'm using for falling back on presenting a stereotype, directly pointing to the fact that it is one and the reader should understand that it is only the common perception, not the actuality.

But there is a big difference between the 'voice' you use as an author speaking to the reader directly, and the voice you use speaking as a character in your world.