Topic: [Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
Started by: Nathan P.
Started on: 3/12/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 3/12/2004 at 7:52pm, Nathan P. wrote:
[Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
Hey all. I'd like to get some opinions on offering optional rules in a main game text.
First, a little background. Timestream, my time travel game, is on the back-burner for the moment. I finally am getting around to thoroughly playtesting the first game I designed, which I have been working on for almost three years now, off-and-on.
It's called Kildarrin, and was originally somewhat of a techno-fantasy heartbreaker, though I'm trying to move away from that with the latest version. The basic concept behind it is that all levels of magic and technology are available and compatable, as well as much "standard fare" from fantasy and gritty sci-fi. It's set in one city, Kildarrin. The system is basically taking the attributes I like from various other systems (primarily D&D and Storyteller) and trying to weave them with my own ideas into a cohesive whole.
To take a more in-depth look, you can check the woefully outdated and disorganized version(s) here (the main site is down for redesign for a reason....).
On to my question: The character creation system has an element of randomness in it, which I like. However, I know how much it can suck when your dice hate you, and you end up with an ineffective character. I'm considering offering optional rules for switching/rerolling certain stats, as to make characters more customizable. What I'd like to hear from you guys is, is offering optional rules in the main text a good idea? Does it dilute the primary system too much? Is it basically admitting that there's a problem with the rules as written, and I should go back and slaughter some cows? Or is it just codifying some common house rules?
All thoughts and opinions welcome.
Thank you for your time,
Nathan P.
On 3/12/2004 at 9:03pm, montag wrote:
Re: [Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
Nathan P. wrote: What I'd like to hear from you guys is, is offering optional rules in the main text a good idea? Does it dilute the primary system too much? Is it basically admitting that there's a problem with the rules as written, and I should go back and slaughter some cows? Or is it just codifying some common house rules?Speaking purely from personal preference and experience here, I'd tend to say, it will be, what it is to you. There's game texts, where I get the feeling the designer is saying "heck, I can't make up my mind. Here, do my job for me, but I'll cover it with some rhetoric about choice so you hopefully won't really notice." and there's game texts, where I get the feeling, the designer is saying "look, the rule is like this because of X. You'll miss element Y if you change it, and said element is not/very crucial to the way I imagine the game to be played. Still, it's your game, so if you want to change it, consider using this option ...".
If you don't find this helpful (can't blame you) you might want to consider the following (non-exhaustive) questions when deciding on optional rules.
– how difficult would changing the rules be? (e.g. with random char-gen it's usually easy. Calculate expected values, distribute that many points. Almost every gamer I know does such tweaks without having to think twice.) If it's easy, don't bother to include optional rules.
– how many people are likely to dislike the rule? If your answer is "lots" and you still want to stick to your rule, remember to explain your reasons and consider adding a "if you _really_ can't stand it"-box.
– is the rule central to the game experience I want people to have? If it is, I'd suggest sticking to your – hopefully otherwise coherent – design. Players who would want to change that rule probably don't want to play the kind of game you designed the system for, so they might want to change some other stuff as well or – more likely – they won't bother with your system and use something more in line with their expectations anyway.
Finally, whatever you decide, for the sake of people like me, don't waffle in the main text. Put options in little boxes/ sidebars or wherever, but I when I get your game, I want to know your vision. I really appreciate optional rules (especially when I get the feeling I needn't worry about overall gaming experience when using the option), but for Bob's sake, not in the main text.
hope this helps
markus
On 3/12/2004 at 9:14pm, montag wrote:
RE: Re: [Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
sorry, double post.
On 3/12/2004 at 9:33pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
It sounds like your system doesn't do what you want it to do.
I mean, sure, you want some randomness, and I have no problem with that. But what do you mean by "dice hate you"? Do you mean that the method of rolling can cause the character in question to be unsuitable as a PC? If so, then the method that you've got is inadequate. It's completely possible to have a random system that makes an entirely playable character every time. And there are infinite ways to do it.
For instance, there's the paired stat option. Each stat has an opposite that's important to play. So, for example:
Strength/Speed
Smarts/Charm
Whatever. The point is that you roll a d10 for one, and the other stat is 11 minus the first. So if I roll a 7 strength, I have a 4 speed.
Silly example, but you get the point. No matter what I roll, my total will always be the same. Some games have stat amount charts:
1 - 5/5/5
2 - 4/5/6
3 - 2/5/7
4 - 2/3/8
Roll once, get your amounts, and then place them on the stats you like. And a bejillion more ways to do it. There's no reason why you can't have randomness, and a system that always produces balanced, or fair, or interesting, whatever you're looking for, stats.
Mike
On 3/12/2004 at 10:22pm, Nathan P. wrote:
RE: [Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
Markus - All good things to think about, and I definitely agree with you about not waffling in the main text. Sidebar it is, if it ends up happening at all.
Mike Holmes wrote: I mean, sure, you want some randomness, and I have no problem with that. But what do you mean by "dice hate you"? Do you mean that the method of rolling can cause the character in question to be unsuitable as a PC? If so, then the method that you've got is inadequate. It's completely possible to have a random system that makes an entirely playable character every time. And there are infinite ways to do it.
Good point. Here's the train of thought you triggered:
By dice hating me, I (literally) mean rolling all 1s and 2s on 9 seperate 1d6 rolls. So technically, yes, the system could create a character that is unsuitable as a PC, it's just not very likely. It's the not-very-likely bit that I'm a tad worried about. However, without going into specifics, there are also ways to increase stats later in character creation, at the cost of being less effective in other areas.
So I guess options become:
a) include optional rules built for the few times that someone ends up rolling an unusable character, but could also be used to change a character to make it more desirable (min/maxing, essentially)
b) clearly point out the ways that such a character could already be fixed by the current system, albeit at the cost of effectiveness in other areas
c) fix the system such to elimate the rare unplayable character, and not have such min-maxing provisions. this would require the most retooling of other aspects of the system.
Looking at it this way, I feel that option C is obviously the way to go.
Thank ye both for the input!
Any other thoughts/ideas/opinions?
Thank you for your time,
Nathan P.
On 3/12/2004 at 11:55pm, taalyn wrote:
RE: [Kildarrin] Opinions on optional rules
I use some random elements in Crux in a way that may be useful to you.
Simply start with a base, and then roll for a small number of points with which to manipulate details.
Frex, with a totally hypothetical system (8 stats, 1 to 20 range):
my character starts with 5 in each of the 8 stats. That puts him just at average human. Then I roll 1d10 (or d12, or d20...), and I have that many points to assign to the stats. I can drop one to raise another.
You've just guaranteed that a character will not be unusable, but still left room for the min-maxers to munchkin their hearts out. Or for the Narr or Sim players to significantly drop a stat because that's what their character is like.
Personally, I hate all-random systems, because getting the rolled stats to match my character is nigh impossible, and because I never come to chargen without some idea of what I want my character to be.
Aidan