This may be more appropriate for the design forum, since I'm talking about a specific manifestation, but I am open to discussing the relevance in other systems as well.

So, I don't think Mike's standard rant on opposed rolls applies in Crux. To refresh minds, here's what exists at the moment:

Draws are always in the hands of the Player. When faced with an opponent, the opponent's skill is turned into a difficulty through simple math, and that's the number the player has to beat. These numbers correspond with a similar scale for difficulty on "unopposed" rolls.

Now, I'm not sure whether I've done two systems or not above - I think I have, and they're combined into one single draw system (in other words, exactly backwards from what Mike suggested in his rant).

In Alpha playtesting, however, the players were dissatisfied. Particularly because I have these things called fates: the Boon, which puts the best possible spin on an action, whether they succeed or fail, the Bane, worst possible spin, and the Wyrd, which is just, well, weird and coincidental.

Because of fates, having the players draw for everything isn't quite right. The opponent never gets a Fate. there is never the opportunity for a player's Boon to go up against an opponent's Bane or Wyrd. So, I'm moving back to opposed draws as well as the unopposed.

Both, because the rope couldn't get a Fate when you're climbing it. The chasm you're about to jump can't have a god day, or a bad one for that matter. But the animate opponents - yep, they can.

generally, Mike's points are all good. I'm not disputing them. What I am wondering, though, is whether his points apply to my system. I don't think they do. Anyone else have insights, or other games/systems which may not be affected by the ideas of Rant #5?

I think Mike's point was that you shouldn't use two or more resolution systems in the same game without a good reason. using opposed rolls for (N)PCs and unopposed rolls when facing an inanimate obstacle doesn't make sense if you're just doing because one obstacle is a person. if, however, you have a specific need -- like assigning Boons, Banes, and Wyrds -- then you have a reason for two mechanics.

unless you decide to allow inanimate objects to acquire Boons, Banes and Wyrds, in which case you should switch to all opposed rolls.

Yeah, I see that now. Unless Mike says otherwise, I'll say you're right, and his observations don't apply because I do have a reason for two systems.

Thanks,

taalyn wrote: Anyone else have insights, or other games/systems which may not be affected by the ideas of Rant #5?

Go here for Mike's Rant #5.

My search-fu is improving.

I think that given the metaphysics of the game that drawing for the animate things would be more than sufficient reason to have a separate system. Heck, I've even admitted that aesthetics alone could be good enough depending.

That said, this makes things more complicated again - more draws in play. Which is fine if it actually produces something. What I'd wonder is if you couldn't then leverage off of the combined draws to make even more of a statement.

For instance, could the colors of my draw say something about the colors of your draw? Forgive me, it's been a while, and this might not work, but could similar colors drawn "cancel" each other? Or maybe matches might have some other effect.

The point is that you're generating a lot of information from a draw, and it's not a quick process. So I'd look for some way to get more from the multiple draws than you'd get from just drawing against an object. Metaphysically, what does the clash of souls entail? How can the colors drawn represent that?

With a neat system like that, nobody could possibly question it because the answer to "why have two systems?" would be in order to examine the conflict of the two souls in question or something.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: For instance, could the colors of my draw say something about the colors of your draw? Forgive me, it's been a while, and this might not work, but could similar colors drawn "cancel" each other? Or maybe matches might have some other effect.

The point is that you're generating a lot of information from a draw, and it's not a quick process. So I'd look for some way to get more from the multiple draws than you'd get from just drawing against an object.

Metaphysically, what does the clash of souls entail? How can the colors drawn represent that?

With a neat system like that, nobody could possibly question it because the answer to "why have two systems?" would be in order to examine the conflict of the two souls in question or something.

taalyn wrote: Generally, no. Because the colors of a draw are effectively reduced to a number of successes, it's simply a matter of comparison - better Power is the winner.

Actually, a draw is pretty quick.

Metaphysically, what does the clash of souls entail? How can the colors drawn represent that?

Well, the Fates provide that, I think. The Fates are something of an extension of souls; at least, I don't think rope or cars would have fates in the same way that animate living creatures do. So, there is a reason for two systems right there.

Mike,

Okay, I see what you're getting at. After thinking about it all day, I finally have a handle on a reply.

Regarding draws affecting each other:
What you're saying makes sense, but essentially no different than dice rolls, simply more obvious. For example, in the WW system, every success I get that is countered (or "matched") by one of yours is effectively a cancelling. So, there isn't any more detail in this system here than is normally available (with the right design) in a diced game as well. It's just obvious in crux because we're so used to looking at pips and numbers.
At one point, considering a diced form of the game (which I'm starting to think is probably a bad idea), we were going to assign numbers to each color. If I did something like that, it wouldn't be so obvious to have the numbers cancel each other, or otherwise provide information, but it would be possible nonetheless.

On blobby souls interacting through masks:
I really really like this explanation. And you're right - there is a lot that can be said about color interaction that I'm not taking advantage of.
But that isn't to say that I haven't considered it. Magic once owed a lot to color interaction, and so did hit locations in physical combat. Eventually, I dropped them because they polluted the sleekness of the system.
I'd like to put something about the metaphysical interactions, but other than the obvious bits I posted above, I'm not sure what I can say. I'll put it to you, then:
I've got Frater Mixelaus, a priest in the Church of R'lyeh, a Caesurite cult. He's very much a green (intelligence, perception) and magenta (willpower, spiritual skills) kind of man. Then you've got Santha, a preformance artist, who's mostly amber (dexterity, precision) and blue (charisma, social skills). Can you give me an example of what you mean when these two would interact? How do their colors interact, and how can it be defined in game? Do the two of them meeting automatically imply certain kinds of relationships will develop? Will their proximity affect the flows of energy in a particular way? Which metaphysical consequences can we talk about, and would they pull "control" away from their players?

On combinations and "explosions":
This is a really good idea. I'm incorporating it into the description of the Wyrd. It's going to have to be very generic - I can't explain every possible combination of colors in a hand (and there are usually at least 3 colors). But I can explain that certain colors imply certain kinds of consequences...

Overall, I think this could be a really powerful tool in game. The problem I've had, though, is that I can't figure out how to apply it without getting very complicated and messing up the simplicity. And yes, I think you dissuaded me from the pieces that did exactly what you're talking about! =)

Aidan

taalyn wrote: How do their colors interact, and how can it be defined in game?

Do the two of them meeting automatically imply certain kinds of relationships will develop?

Will their proximity affect the flows of energy in a particular way? Which metaphysical consequences can we talk about, and would they pull "control" away from their players?

On combinations and "explosions":
This is a really good idea. I'm incorporating it into the description of the Wyrd. It's going to have to be very generic - I can't explain every possible combination of colors in a hand (and there are usually at least 3 colors). But I can explain that certain colors imply certain kinds of consequences...

And yes, I think you dissuaded me from the pieces that did exactly what you're talking about! =)

See, Mike, you're either reading my mind, or great minds think alike. =)


Locked motes

The most obvious way that motes can be locked is with magic. Ongoing spells, that last for a while (shields, seemings, various enchantments) require that the motes used to cast them are held until the spell is dispelled. At one time, I had a whole system of colors and requirements, but it was too complicated for the system. Now, when you draw to cast the spell, the motes are not returned to the Caern right away. How quickly those motes return to the caern depends on the kind of spell, whether the draw succeeded or not, and how long the spell is maintained. At any rate, I'd gone there long ago, and had decided in the 6 month hiatus to return it.
The only other use I can think of at the moment would be obsessions (the links between players and characters, places, etc.), though I'm not sure just yet how that could work.
The issue is that holding out motes effectively penalizes characters by changing the probabilities held in their caerns. So I can only see it useful for "negative" effects. Also, it does add complexity to the system, something that I'm avoiding in general if possible.

Reactions
Comparing draws for determining reactions is an excellent use. I've noted to explain it. I've use dthe same technique for determining situations and circumstances in general as well (which PC does the goon go for? I made everyone draw 3 motes, and the goon went after the PC with the most matching colors).

Affecting Quiddity
I brought this up, but it seems like a very good idea. I'll have to think about it some more, but I have this idea tickling the back of my head - perhaps the colors in a magical draw deplete the Quiddity nearby, making certain colors of actions more difficult.

I appreciate the brainstorming - it's been very helpful (and when have you not? =). I hope you'll continue to throw ideas at me.

Just a note, I'm going to ask Ron to move this thread into game design, since it really hasn't gone anywhere but in discussion of Crux.

Aidan