Topic: D12 Revisited
Started by: The Immortal MOOSE!
Started on: 3/15/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 3/15/2004 at 9:58pm, The Immortal MOOSE! wrote:
D12 Revisited
Quite some time ago, and under a different Screen Name, I posted a concept for a core game mechanic based around the use of a D12 for all resolutions.
Due to a series of personal crisises and mishaps, I was forced to abandon my Game Design ambitions, but I'd like to reopen that discussion now.
Core Mechanic
Basically, you have a listing of character stats, which are the most important factor when resolving tasks. Whatever these stats are called (Strength, Agility, or whatever) they set the baseline difficulty for the d12 roll to resolve the task. You must roll UNDER the relevent stat with any applicable modifiers in order to be successful.
Example:
Let us say SUPER STRONG character's girlfriend has just been run over by a car, and he wants to lift the front end off her. He has STRENGTH 10.
He must roll his D12, and score UNDER a 10 in order for the attempt to be successful.
End Example
This roll can be favorably or unfavorably modified by the GM, based on circumstances. For example, assesing a penalty for the roll based on lack of skill with the task.
Skills:
In this system, skills are not rated or tracked. You either have a skill or do not. Some skills will be usable untrained, such as climbing. Others will require you to have the relevent skill, such as Medicine.
So, what do ya'll think about my li'l idea? Suggestions? Criticisms? Anyone want to call me an idiot?
On 3/15/2004 at 10:19pm, Jasper wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
Hello and welcome back, Moose.
Is there an actual system that goes along with this mechanic, or is it just an idea floating around? To be frank, this is a system that hundreds of games use already: rolling under a skill rating on a single die is nothing new. The fact that it has been used so many times is telling: it works just fine (and why shouldn't it, it's so simple). Of course, it really depends on the context of the game it's used in -- hence my question of whether this is part of a larger system.
My only other comment is that if skills aren't rated, what's the point of posessing a skill that can be used untrained? Does no one need to bother taking "climbing" as a skill? Are ninjas no better at climbing than anyone else?
On 3/15/2004 at 11:09pm, The Immortal MOOSE! wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
You may call me TIM! LOL.
Is there an actual system that goes along with this mechanic, or is it just an idea floating around? To be frank, this is a system that hundreds of games use already: rolling under a skill rating on a single die is nothing new. The fact that it has been used so many times is telling: it works just fine (and why shouldn't it, it's so simple). Of course, it really depends on the context of the game it's used in -- hence my question of whether this is part of a larger system
My idea was to have a flexible system that was free from any particular setting, with the idea that settings could be "dropped in" over top. Kinda like GURPS or FUZION. My vision was a system that could be explained and learned in a few minutes, and would allow for maximum ease of play. This was just my "core mechanic", my starting point.
My only other comment is that if skills aren't rated, what's the point of posessing a skill that can be used untrained? Does no one need to bother taking "climbing" as a skill? Are ninjas no better at climbing than anyone else?
I was considering this very thing after I posted the topic start myself. Perhaps modifying the skill system so that skills may be taken multiple times to grant bonuses on skill checks.... or allowing for skill bonuses based on "occupation" or "character concept" that could be worked out between player and GM.
On 3/15/2004 at 11:42pm, anonymouse wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
Pokethulu uses a great D12 system; it's roll-under, and the player rolls 1, 2, or 3 dice depending on whether the task is mostly easy, kinda tricky, or really hard. Characters each have 6 abilities, which are vague combinations of skill and talent into some appropriate categories.
I really like the 1/2/3 dice scheme, and you could do the same thing for your skills: if you've got the skill, you can roll 2 dice. If it matches your profession (Ninja, say) then you can roll 3. The rest of the suckers just roll 1 die and hope for the best.
There's no levels of success besides "yes" or "no", the extra dice would simply give you a better chance of "yes".
Anyway, like Jasper said, the mechanic in and of itself is fine and not really worth commenting on.
If your goal is for a universal system, try answering these questions:
* Will any setting and/or scenario play fine with this system? What will it lack that a more focused ruleset have?
* What does this system have over (as you mentioned) FUDGE or GURPS? I think FATE is another uni-system that's floating around. This is to say nothing of the more universal-universal systems such as Universalis or Multiverser.
* Is this something you'd eventually like to sell, simply put up on the web, or only use for your own games?
The answer to what you want to do with it (sell/web/self) pretty much decides how important the first two questions are.
On 3/16/2004 at 12:05am, The Immortal MOOSE! wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
Pokethulu uses a great D12 system; it's roll-under, and the player rolls 1, 2, or 3 dice depending on whether the task is mostly easy, kinda tricky, or really hard. Characters each have 6 abilities, which are vague combinations of skill and talent into some appropriate categories.
I really like the 1/2/3 dice scheme, and you could do the same thing for your skills: if you've got the skill, you can roll 2 dice. If it matches your profession (Ninja, say) then you can roll 3. The rest of the suckers just roll 1 die and hope for the best.
I was going for a game that could be played with one die and some pencils and scrap paper. It's an interesting mechanic that you propose, perhaps something I can explore in playtest....
Will any setting and/or scenario play fine with this system? What will it lack that a more focused ruleset have?
That is what I need to find out. I can see ways to model pretty much every setting with the basic mechanic, with a little work and creativity. I suppose a more focused ruleset would probably have a more detailed and controlled system for determining the effects of the roll. My system concept would basically leave it up to the player and the GM to "model" the effects of a skill roll, whereas a more focused ruleset would have set specifics for what the effects would be.
* What does this system have over (as you mentioned) FUDGE or GURPS? I think FATE is another uni-system that's floating around. This is to say nothing of the more universal-universal systems such as Universalis or Multiverser.
I don't have much experience with other uni-systems. I've played a bit of Tri Stat, and a wee bit of GURPS. I've never heard of FUDGE though. What I'm going for is a truely simplistic system, where the rules can be learned with a few minutes of instruction and play, and where they don't bog down the ROLEPLAY aspect of the game.
* Is this something you'd eventually like to sell, simply put up on the web, or only use for your own games?
I was hoping to put together something to be sold, or at least distributed for free. I was thinking Web Distribution, as PDFs or Word files.
I had this idea.... you buy the basic set, and with it comes a setting or two for free. Then you buy individual settings as the inspiration comes to you, or make them yourself. Much like the way GURPS works.
On 3/16/2004 at 5:01pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
Just as a thought re: electronic distribution.
There are a few (apparently VERY few) people out there, who like me, dislike Microsoft products. I'd suggest publishing in a truly universal format such as .PDF
I for one, can't read word files, so you'd lose me as a target audience.
Cheers
On 3/16/2004 at 7:20pm, Jasper wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
Tim wrote: What I'm going for is a truely simplistic system, where the rules can be learned with a few minutes of instruction and play, and where they don't bog down the ROLEPLAY aspect of the game.
It's something of a common misconception that rules are somehow detrimental to "genuine" role-playing. There are plenty of threads addressing it, (Storyteller Heartbreakers for one) but it all ultimately gets back to System Does Matter. You don't need fewer rules but mroe rules that do what you want... so what do you want? I'd strongly suggest checking out fudge and some other free systems (if nothing else), as well as recent threads about generic/universal systems... you may be saved from reinventing some wheels.
On 3/17/2004 at 12:13am, The Immortal MOOSE! wrote:
RE: D12 Revisited
There are a few (apparently VERY few) people out there, who like me, dislike Microsoft products. I'd suggest publishing in a truly universal format such as .PDF
Yeah, I was looking into it. I know precious little about Electronic Publishing, but after doing a bit of research, I tend to agree with that suggestion. PDF it is, perhaps with an option to download the files in another format as desired.
It's something of a common misconception that rules are somehow detrimental to "genuine" role-playing. There are plenty of threads addressing it, (Storyteller Heartbreakers for one) but it all ultimately gets back to System Does Matter. You don't need fewer rules but mroe rules that do what you want... so what do you want?
I'm not saying that system is necessarily detrimental to roleplay....
Perhaps I should explain myself a little more. In recent days, I've seen quite a few games that I've tried to run (particularly those with new systems) die painfully on the operating table. Largely this was due to the fact that things like Character Creation took such a long time that by the time everyone had thier chance with the relevent book, everyone was just too damn tired to actually PLAY.
This phenomenon I've noticed has occured in particular in quite a few online games I've tried to run. I do not like to turn people (potentially GREAT roleplayers) away from my games for stupid reasons, like not having the proper materials (ie: game books). But at the same time, I do not have hours and hours to type out material that is covered in a game book in order to explain how a system works to allow a potential player to get into it. Around the table top, this isn't so much of a problem when all but one player knows the rules, but when only the GM knows the rules it becomes a problem.
The solution I came up with was to develop a system so simple that it could be clearly and easily explained to even a TOTAL RPing newbie with a few minutes effort, and require very little in the way of further guidance for that person to create a character.
My idea for a simplistic system extends throughout the entire game, not just the core game mechanic. I want people who have experience with the system to be able to generate a character (well.... stat wise anyway....) in ten to twenty minutes, with nothing but a few paragraph description of the setting and skill list, some scrap paper and pencils.