Hi all.

I'll come clean. I don't mean Hit Points, per se. What I mean is options for forcing character retirement based on injuries AND/OR more narrative/storyline concerns. Specifically, I want a mechanic or process that makes it apparent how close to 'dead' (in body or spirit) you are. A shocking revelation or death of a friend could/should/might carry as much impact as a sucking chest wound.

The setup: We're doing a game in an (1873) American old-west setting. There's no supernatural or other special effects to factor in, and the players want to hew pretty closely to 'real' old west action. Sim concerns triumph, mitigated only by the GM looking out for an interesting story. The players stated that they want the real old west, but that's to be colored by them describing their favorite old-west movie scenes too.

(As I type this, I just can't shake the sense that you, the reader, is imagining a sort of Cowboys-and-Indians-done-RUNE style. It's not.)
But there just may come a point where a bullet to the chest is simply too much to survive. It's expected.

What I have done, so far, is to remind them about the possibility of death, and then, if there is damage, roll against their Guts (or Heart) stat as a damage save. It has been used only once so far and seemed to work okay, but I was reckoning that y'all might have some other ideas I could consider.

One other option that appeals to me is to use the concept of survival points from EPICS, but limit them to improving their Guts. I dunno.

Thanks!

Sparky

PS...I did a search for 'hit points' and got 11 thousand results. So then I did 'hit AND points' and got 23 pages or so. Nothing really addressed my problem, so here I am asking. I would think that there's a thread that discusses this somewhere.

Hi, Sparky.

This is quite a pickle you're in. Simulationism in the old west is likely to be deadly.

Off the top of my head, I suggest a luck stat of some kind to avoid getting killed. Therefore, you can stay alive until your luck runs out sort of thing. Exactly how I'll leave to you or we could discuss it if you want.

How about using wound levels? Its basically hp with another name. When a character fails his save, the degree of failure determines the number of wound levels lost. Give the wound levels nice descriptive names, and you all know how close the characters are to death. The only problem is that is doesnt really cover the 'seeing a friend die' effect.

The Barony FRPG (Better Games, 1990) had a character damage chart that you could easily adapt. Characters were described by adjectives. These adjectives were then mapped to one or more of four wound columns, on the character damage chart. As you took damage, you crossed off adjectives, depending on the wound type. When you had no more adjectives in a column you overflowed to the next column. When you ran out of adjectives in your columns you were dead. There was a column for 'spirit' wounds too; its overflow was 'unconscious'.

Here's what the chart kind of looked like, using rows instead of columns. Each row maps to one kind of wound type ie take a bleeder and cross off one adjective from the bleeder row. Newbies might start off with only a few adjectives and conceivably have only 2 Bruise/cut, 2 Bleeder, 2 Vicious, 2 Spirit (all of which they would get just from 'Base' and 'Player').

Bruise/cut
Base--Player--Durable--Defender--Cutpurse--Thief--Destroyer--Heinous One; Overflow = Bleeder

Bleeder
Base--Player--Durable--Weapon Master--War Knight--Sensai--Destroyer--Heinous One; Overflow = Vicious

Vicious
Base--Player--Durable--Mystic--Hero--Immaculate--Battlemaster--Heinous One; Overflow = Slain

Spirit
Base--Player--Fast--Bold--Warlock--Wizard--Destroyer--Heinous One; Overflow = Unconscious

Incurring a bruise/cut would additionally result in a –1 penalty to all rolls in the next combat round; one or more bleeders would cause you to lose all of your actions in the next combat round; the pain of a vicious wound would incapacitate you. Characters with the adjective 'bold' did not suffer any of these special effects.

Bruise/cut wounds were recovered at the end of each battle. Bleeders and Vicious wounds healed at the conclusion of each adventure. Spirit wounds could be cured only by magic.

This approach can be adapted to other genres, by changing the wound descriptions and adjectives; reducing the number of columns; and modifying the special effects.

You can also increase weapon lethality by increasing the likelihood of causing the heavier kinds of wounds. Punches might mostly cause bruise/cuts or possibly a bleeder; a scattergun might be unlikely to cause a bruise/cut and more likely to cause a bleeder or a vicious.

This may be dumb but I would drop trying to 'simulate' the old west. Maybe it's just me but I have never seen a real important reason to simulate reality in an RPG. Your game may be cowboy movie inspired, western book inspired, but I seriously doubt that it was inspired by your great grandfather's journals or whatever.

I'd make simulating reality a priority, not the goal.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Empyrealmortal

If your not looking to put in perma death, maybe something we are using in our game. Two stat points. One for consiousness and one for life. The relationship between the two is up to you, but basically CONS is what determines if your still on your feet. Once you get knocked out from CON loss you take loss to LIFE. That gets the player out of the current fight, but preserves the fiction of death. So you dont have "die-res-kill".

You could mix it up a bit and have some portion of cons go to life directly if its a very hard hit. And you could make the healing of LIFE a bit of an effort ... i.e. getting the bullet pulled out.

Lara

your welcome to use the idea if it amuses you, here is the write up:
http://www.sanctuaryshard.com/postnuke-test/index.php?module=subjects&func=viewpage&pageid=333

what kind of system are you using right now as your basic Conflict Res Mechanic? it's always a smart idea to try and have your damage system work hand in hand with it, or just be a direct parralel of it in some way.

if it's a dice pool system or something with a measurable degree of success/failure, maybe you could use a wound levels system (a la White Wolf or Shadowrun) and have the player roll against a damage check for both wounds inflicted during combat and horrible stuff that would wear down a character personally. Your damamge system could be called an "Exhaustion" mechanic, and believe me, the naming of things is a powerful tool.

so, let's say for instance that a character has been shot. The Player would roll his Will/Guts/Spirit/Heart/What Have You against the damamge rating of the weapon. For every pointof success that the weapon gets in damaging the player is one Exhaustion level checked, or whatever ladder distance you want it to climb.

at the same time, you could have a player make the same check against the level of difficulty it is to cope with the death of the PC's wife and children at the hands of his worst enemy. Roll badly enough and the character may just die of sadness over it.

just an idea. and, like i said above, knowing what kind of system you're using would be a bonus. integration is lovely!

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Many mooms ago, TSR put out a '20s game called Gangbusters. It used HPs, but it had an interesting sub rule. When a character reached damage = 1/2 their total HPs or greater, that character needed proper medical help within 24 hours, or they would die. Also, characters healed slowly from deadly damage (they had a seperate damage for "bruises" that added to your total damage, but healed faster), about 1 hp/week. I also seem to recall that there were optional rules for hit location that could affect movement/shooting ability, etc.

The main thing I find with Realworld based settings is that characters have to deal with the after effects of their actions. Characters in Fantasy settings may or may not have to deal with the results, depending on the GM's plans. This is something you may want to consider. I think it is a fairly large philosophical difference.

How realistic of a game are you running?

Speaking from some experience, I can tell you that gun combat is a funny thing. There are people who've been shot twice or three times in the chest and walked awat from it, and then there are those who've taken a shot to the foot and died from shock. If you want "Total Realism", I think that the best way to do it would be with two very simple tables:

1. The Random Hit Location Table: This table basically determines where you get hit. If you were using a D10 for this roll, the table might look something like this:

1 Head Shot
2-4 Torso Shot
5 Left Arm
6 Right Arm
7-8 Left Leg
9-10 Right Leg

2. Random Effects Table: This table basically determines the effect that the shot has. Everything from a graze to a shot to a vital area. Modelled on the same D10 roll, it might look a wee bit like this:

1-2 Shot grazes, causing superficial damage. Looks ugly and is a bit painful, but no real harm is done. A minor penalty is imposed on some future actions.

3-4 Shot connects solidly with flesh, causing a painful wound that bleeds a fair ammount. This type of wound isn't immediately fatal, but can kill (blood loss) if left untreated for too long. This type of wound will also cause moderate penaties.

5-6 Shot grazes something vital, causing whatever it hits serious pain. If this wound is left unchecked, the person could die very quickly. This wound bleeds fairly quickly, but the character is capable of functioning for a short period of time with severe penalties.

7-8 Shot connects solidly with a vital spot, incapacitating the character. The may not move or take any actions, although they may still be conscious. If this wound isn't treated within a very short time period (like a few minutes) it will be fatal.

9-10 Shot strikes a vital area, killing the character if not instantly than within a moment or two.

Obviously, this idea does away with the whole "damage mechanic" concept, instead relying on a much more cinematic method of combat. To make it less lethal, you might allow a player to reroll each wound that might cause instant death, or cause permanent damage once, and have them take the result of thier choice.

Just had another inspiration.... the Permanent Injuries Table.

Permant Injuries Table: Any time a character is treated for a wound that has resulted in a 3 or higher on the Random Effects Table, them must roll on the following table, again modelled using the D10:

1-2 Lucked out, no permanent Injury.

3-4 Character suffers minor pain in the affected area, casuing stiffness and mild impairment during certain circumstances (When it rains or is cold, for example.)

5-6 Minor impairment of the affected area (A limb loses a small ammount of mobility, a head shot might result in slightly dulled vision or hearing.)

7-8 Significant impairment of affected area (Limbs loose much mobility, head shots result in brain damage or possibly more severe dulling of multiple senses. A torso shot might result in a heart wound, causing the person to develop a heart condition.)

9-10 Total impairment of the affected area. (A limb becomes useless or needs to be amputated, if a torso shot the victim is a para/quadrapeligic)

Hey Sparky,

Sounds like you don't want a "simulate reality" mechanic. It's not about realism, it's about appropriateness to the Old West as a genre. You're "simulating fiction."

In Argonauts, my soon-to-be-released game about mythic Greek superheroes, I use an interesting damage system based on a character's Fate (which was measured in a wound-like system, where you can take X wounds before dying). However, once a character takes a specific number of wounds, certain things happen in the narrative of the story. At 5 wounds, they get a omen or prophecy of their ultimate fate. At 10, they understand their tragic flaw. At 15, they recieve a vision of how their destruction might play out. And, at 20, they're dead or destroyed to the point of not being a hero anymore (like Oedipus poking his eyes out).

One of the major purposes of the game is to emulate tragedy, but you could easily do something similar in a game that wasn't about that. For instance, in Argonauts, you could take wounds for things besides damage, such as action that purposefully moved you closer to your fate. I see this very much like the "shocking revelation" or "death of a buddy" that you described in your opening post.

In any case, I suggest you think about it a bit and see what you want the damage system to do for the story, not just based on any ideas about realism or whatever.

Just to throw in my two cents, I like the hit location idea. The GM can then go ahead and dramatize whatever happens, thus giving the impact with some sort of system.

Otherwise it can be hard to tell how critical a shot is.

Aigh!

I typed out a good sized response, but it didn't take. I'll re-respond tomorrow.

These are great posts. All of them have things that appeal to me.

Thanks!
Sparky

I've had another thought inside my devious little miniature poodle brain....

And no.... it was not "Hey! Let's go pee on the mailman's leg!"

Instead of simply allowing a player to re-roll a result that kills the character or causes a severe/ permanent injury, why not hand out "Luck Points" or "Fate Points"? Each player recieves ONE point at the beginning of a gaming session, and may recieve additional points during the session for truely great roleplaying. These points can be redeemed at any time to force a reroll of dice for any actions that directly affect the character. Fate points are not renewed between gaming sessions, once a fate point is spent it is gone.

EXAMPLE MODE ON:

An enemy takes a potshot at the PC and hits. The PC has the option of redeeming a fate point to force the enemy to reroll the attack roll. A player may continue spending fate points in this manner, up to his maximum. He MUST accept whatever effect was the last one rolled, even if it's WORSE.

The GM then rolls for the effects of being shot on the tables above. If the PCdoes not like the end result of the three rolls, he can then spend a fate point to have the GM reroll it. He may do this an unlimited number of times, until he runs out of fate points. As mentioned above, the PC must accept the final result, even if it's worse than the first roll.

EXAMPLE MODE OFF.

A better mechanic than simply allowing the PC to call for a reroll, ya? This way, fate may eventually catch up to the character.....

One possibilty is to treat hps as strictly luck and skill and personal morale, divorced from physical damage. MERP sort of did that, and old Dragon essays suggested something similar about treating AD&D hps the same way. It becomes an explanation for why more experienced characters seem to last longer in combat, and also why they recover so quickly to fight again.

If you have some sort of stat like CON, you might allow damage over the hp value to start rolling over to CON. MERP did this. When CON is gone, the character is dead. For an old west game, perhaps CON loss could be permanent, but hp loss (skill/morale) is relatively easily recoverable. Characters that lose CON, or another physical type trait would start to have a harder time riding/jumping/climbing/swimming, frex.

Alternately, you could have relatively low hps and high damage potential weapons. When the characters take damage, allow them to spread the damage around to hps or physical skills, or even some other characteristics. Damage not on hps is permanent. Thus, the players get some choice on what happens to their character.

As for non-physical damage, allow players to take the points off hps or non-physical skills/characteristics. That gets into the whole question of emotional trauma. Ever gone through a really bad emotional time? Notice how your concentration, etc were really off during that period? That method would reflect those kind of emotional wounds.

Whee! I love lots and lots of options. I don't want the ideas to stop rolling in.

First, I'd better clarify that we are indeed simulating old west fiction as a few of you commented on. When discussig what we wanted out of this game, a lot of examples were thrown around. One thing we were quick to agree on was including the chance that your PC could die. Other examples from movies and books, plus what was known from actual history.

We're shooting for a reasonable similarity to realism as opposed to including any special effects. But the game is about 'grit' despite risk. Can you rise to the challenge, relying only on a little technology and whatever abilities you bring?

Further, the track I've taken is that medical knowledge of that time is not much help when treating serious medical problems. The doctor's biggest assets are experience and improving morale. I also am using the rule of thumb I gleaned (from the Traveller list) where a person, when seriously injured does only three things. They might ignore the wound temporarily, go into shock (things get more complicated) or they just die.

Zathreyel asked about the system. It's very basic, fluid and reflects my more narrative preferences. PCs consist of 75pts split into various traits (occupations, skills, personal and physical qualities, etc.) Two of these are summed, modified by difficulty to create a target number. Using FitM task resolution, players try to roll less or equal to that number on a d20. Just how much lower is called the margin and a margin of 10 or more reflects a major success in the task.

It would be nice, for consistency, to have a mechanic in place to maintain the tone that's been set up. We are planning to rotate the GMing duties, and the other primary GM is a hard number sort. The mechanic should dictate results but leave lots of wiggle room for the GM to create specifics. We also want to avoid basing dying purely on dice rolls or purely on dramatic sensibility, given the fickle natures of both dice and preferences.

So the general direction I'm leaning is to have a single number/wound track/thing that the GM tracks on behalf of each PC. The GM can describe the pertinent effects of morale, wounds, fatigue, etc and the player decides how much they'll push it....we'll see much grit they have. It'll refresh over time or at appropriate times.

There's a lot of good ideas to draw on in the threads above. Have to tinker around.

Thanks!

Sparky

That sounds quite interesting. Excuse me from deviating from the topic a bit, but how is it working out? Do your players find the system fun to play?

Well, from my first aid classes I remember that there are 3 major life saving steps:

clear the Airway, stop the Bleeding, and Check for shock (ABC). Anyway, if the respiratory and pulminary systems are affected then you can die quickly, shock can incapacitate you. Otherwise the wounds just hinder you in some way. So, for a realistic system you need to consider suffocation, bleeding, and pain/shock rules. I also think that individual wounds heal separately, not in an aggregated fashion (like HPs). Each wound should have varying first aid and medical treatment difficulty and some natural recovery and reinjury rules.

Good points all, Umberhulk. My only concern with something like what you describe is.... when is realism too real?

Too many wound tables I think would bog down the game. Every time anyone gets shot (which could potentially happen very often), you'd need to determine all of these various effects, in addition to the immediate effect of the shot.

Do you have any suggestions for accounting for all of this while keeping the game running smoothly?

Hi:
I have a couple of questions for the original poster:

1) Are PCs in your game at an advantage over NPC type threats?

Basically, are all humans in a pretty tight range of durability, or are you going with some sort of "mook" type concept, where minor enemies are given a shortened method of damage taking?

2) Have you considered allowing Players to have some imput on how an attack or damage source affects their character?

Admittedly, this question comes from my mini wargaming experience. In the current ed.of wh40k, players have limited ability to determine which models in a squad that comes under fire are removed. They aren't allowed to determine how many. Compare this to a rpg character in a system that uses some sort of ablative (hps/health levels) damage tracking.

3) Since you are designing the system, have you simply jotted down a big list of damage effects you'd like to see in the game, and how often in combat you think they should likely occur?

I'm not thinking of a whole system, just a sort of brainstorming session.

4) Have you considered the impact of post-shootout effects?

Slow healing times and permanent maiming may seriously impede later actions by characters. A game might grind to a halt under such circumstances. Most players I know would ternd to retire a PC that was all shot up in favor of creating a new character to complete a given adventure, especially if the adventure had some sort of deadline aspect.

5) Have you considered a reward type system to counteract permanent damage from combat?

Using something like xps to buy off long term effects of combat might be viable. Frex, some maiming might be permanent, but xps buy off the damage rather than get used to advannce other skills. In a way, this isn't dissimilar to allowing players to have some choice on damage effects as in #2 above, but does it at the end of an adventure/between adventures instead of at the time of damage.

Robert

Too many wound tables I think would bog down the game. Every time anyone gets shot (which could potentially happen very often), you'd need to determine all of these various effects, in addition to the immediate effect of the shot.

Hmm...

Orbsmatt, The players (all 4) are quite eager to play again and feedback has been positive. (One player is very used to a certain other homebrew system, which has preconfig'd things like Strike, Dodge, etc. It's a little confusing for him, but I think I'll have a list of his traits jotted down so that I can suggest combinations.)

Robert,
Overall, I've tried to consistently narrate rolls so that it's easy-to-inure but hard-to-kill even minor NPCs with a single shot. I figure that the body is tougher than we give credit for sometimes while still having a limit. I've pretty much been playing by the narrative triggers method mentioned earlier. Jotting down the kinds of damage and frequency I want to see them happen is just the kind of thing I should have already thought of and done. doh!

As for player input, these players tend to resist using meta-game reesources, but we lean toward the idea that every shot is a called shot (even if you're just going for center-mass.) Using xp to buy off bad traits (wounds) is a great idea, IMO, but these guys don't like that kind of thing. I see that as limiting yourself to only eating meat and potatoes at every meal, but I'm more experimental.

Umberhulk, the ABC and the wound cards are a great idea to have in a game. I agree with your individual wounds heal/affect individually, and I like the greater application of the traits concept (namely that the chars track their traits and I assign newer temporary or permanent traits to them, such as 'leg wound.') Unfortunately, that gets too much for me to track when trying to keep the game running.

But I like the concept of mentally checking the ABC and basing difficulties and consequences off that. It could be tied into a margin chart where the better the margin, the more severe the ABC complications or even some kind of wound ladder by damage type, maybe. That would let me work in a lot of the things I like from the other suggestions too.

It might be a few days until I post again, possibly not until Friday when I'll have time to have put together this ladder-thing and see if I like it.

Thanks!
Sparky

Umberhulk: Nicely done!

I had never even thought of the possibilites of using anything other than books and dice during an RPG session. I rather like the idea of wound cards. Hmm.... I'll need to research that li'l idea for my own games....

Umberhulk: Nicely done!

Hmm.... each wound card could have a list of possible effects, 2-3. You would default to the lightest effect, then having a "wound roll" to determine the severity.

EXAMPLE:

You receive a card with listings for "Light Wound", "Moderate Wound" and "Severe Wound". By default, you are afflicted with a light wound. The GM (or player) then makes a wound check to determine whether or not they are afflicted with a moderate wound. If it is determined thay are afflicted with a moderate wound, they then roll to determine if they are afflicted with a severe wound. If the roll fails to confirm a wound at any point, stop rolling and record the nature and penalties of the last confirmed wound.

As long as the opposed "soak" roll is against the damage inflicted, I think that works out well.

This damage system is very SIM-y and will make combat very deadly and something to be avoided, but I feel that it is playable.

Just chiming in with a finalization...

I'll secretly track two scores for each PC, one for physical health and the other for morale (Have to get more westernish names for them, of course.) Any damage greater than a 10pt margin comes directly off the health score, as well as any overflowing morale damage.

Thanks to everyone for the input. It was a big help.

Sparky